Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[SheilaNaGig]

No, that's partly what nearly got a GP friend of mine. She started from a position of being very concerned for people missing out on normal NHS services and the issues with mental health that some people were having with the lockdown, and that was on top of an alternative culture/leftie political mistrust of the government. She then saw 'respected ' academic and other medical professional like the above criticizing the lockdown and that gave her concerns a 'evidenced' background. She stuck with it for a bit, but was talked around and is OK now, but I can see how it gets even very sensible clever people sometimes.

Yep. A colleague of mine sent me a video and asked me what I thought. I’ve always respected her, so my first position was to give credence to the clip. I took a step back, watched it a second time, and as soon as I started fact checking it and tracing sources it was immediately obvious is was nonsense. I rang my colleague right away to talk it through with her and I think I managed to head her off at the pass. I think bothered me that she seemed to believe it , but it’s also alarmed me that I was prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt because it had been sent to me by a trusted colleague.

Having said that’s, I've tried to use this tendency to pull in the other direction: if I can maintain my position of trust and authority with clients, they're more likely to give credence to my debunking of this bullshit.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Yes the best response I've seen to chemtrails, which I saw from some wise person on urban, was "why? why go to all that trouble and time and expense with the risk of being discovered with so many people being involved, when you could just dump the stuff in the local reservoir?"

That’s exactly what I say. I have even used the “fluoride is dangerous” thing to strengthen it.

The child trafficking thing is more tricky, because there really is child trafficking.




ETA For the avoidance of doubt..., I’m not saying “the fluoride thing is true therefore... etc” . I’m saying “well, if it’s true that they use the water supply to mass medicate, like you say about the fluoride, then how come...”

 

[NoXion]

It can give meaning to people's lives. That can help some people when their lives are going to shit. But it can also end up replacing whatever else was there previously that gave their lives meaning, making it pretty impossible to come back. Come back to what? It's all gone.

You can tell that it's about that with Flat Earthers, whenever they dribble on about how science paints a picture of the universe in which humans are insignificant to the grander scheme of things.

It strikes me as an extreme form of egotism to want the entire universe to revolve (perhaps literally!) around humans. Yes, I think humanity should be happy and healthy, but we don't need the universe to whisper sweet nothings into our ears in order to do that.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It can give meaning to people's lives. That can help some people when their lives are going to shit. But it can also end up replacing whatever else was there previously that gave their lives meaning, making it pretty impossible to come back. Come back to what? It's all gone.

Yes. And I’ve noticed that there’s common thread of a more general sense of persecution, disenfranchisement, being at the bottom, being exploited, that runs through it too.

One of the things that I’ve encountered is Black people who have absolutely bought into it, and other Black people who don’t buy into it, but are saying it’s being used to drive a wedge into the Black community. I’m still listening to this, I’m not sure I’ve got a good enough handle on it to make further comment just yet.

 

[two sheds]

That’s exactly what I say. I have even used the “fluoride is dangerous” thing to strengthen it.

The child trafficking thing is more tricky, because there really is child trafficking.

yep and the drugs companies buying politicians too, because they do

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You can tell that it's about that with Flat Earthers, whenever they dribble on about how science paints a picture of the universe in which humans are insignificant to the grander scheme of things.

It strikes me as an extreme form of egotism to want the entire universe to revolve (perhaps literally!) around humans. Yes, I think humanity should be happy and healthy, but we don't need the universe to whisper sweet nothings into our ears in order to do that.

Some people clearly do. I think you're right. A lot of it involves a need to feel important, significant. It's not like that isn't a common trait in humans. It is. In some ways there are socially acceptable delusions and socially unacceptable ones. But the socially unacceptable ones can have destructive consequences for those who follow them.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

This stuff seems to be popular with 'born again' Christians. It feeds their beliefs about the anti-christ, satanic influences and the end of the world. There's very little point trying to reason with them as they think they are the chosen few who can see the truth and the rest of us have been sucked into the dark side.

I feel like that’s a differnt branch. I suspect these are just gladly gobbling it up as an add-on or extension to their day-to-day far out beliefs. I don’t think the evangelical Christians are a newly converted bunch of believers, I think it’s an extension of their central Thing, whereas a huge number of Covid deniers have been generally bimbling about without a huge social centralised cohesive thing to hang it on til now.

 

[frogwoman]

I definitely think that there are aspects of this that have hooked people in who don't believe in the usual conspiracy theories LynnDoyleCooper

 

[Pickman's model]

My effing sister has. And i don't really know how to directly respond/deal with it. Me telling her it's daft is not working.

Very sorry to hear this

 

[Pickman's model]

This stuff seems to be popular with 'born again' Christians. It feeds their beliefs about the anti-christ, satanic influences and the end of the world. There's very little point trying to reason with them as they think they are the chosen few who can see the truth and the rest of us have been sucked into the dark side.

Born again - twice too often

 

[frogwoman]

I feel like that’s a differnt branch. I suspect these are just gladly gobbling it up as an add-on or extension to their day-to-day far out beliefs. I don’t think the evangelical Christians are a newly converted bunch of believers, I think it’s an extension of their central Thing, whereas a huge number of Covid deniers have been generally bimbling about without a huge social centralised cohesive thing to hang it on til now.

Probably a dose of antisemitic shit among a few of the born again Christians already tbh as there was when this stuff started getting popular among Bush supporting US Christians in the 00s

 

[LDC]

...whereas a huge number of Covid deniers have been generally bimbling about without a huge social centralised cohesive thing to hang it on til now.

Yeah, some have called it a meta-conspiracy in that it enables lots of other 'free floating' nonsense to be brought together under its umbrella, each single one reinforcing the others: anti-vax, 5G, social control by elites, nanobots, etc.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, some have called it a meta-conspiracy in that it enables lots of other 'free floating' nonsense to be brought together under its umbrella, each single one reinforcing the others: anti-vax, 5G, social control by elites, nanobots, etc.

And you don't have to go along with every element of it either the way that eg David Icke fans would under normal circumstances. I think a lot of covid denialists actually see themselves as the rational and sensible ones in the face of an irrational public health panic leading to a huge loss of freedoms etc. I'm not talking about the anti vaxxers but the 'DIED OF COVID NOT WITH COVID' stuff

 

[SheilaNaGig]

And you don't have to go along with every element of it either the way that eg David Icke fans would under normal circumstances. I think a lot of covid denialists actually see themselves as the rational and sensible ones in the face of an irrational public health panic leading to a huge loss of freedoms etc. I'm not talking about the anti vaxxers but the 'DIED OF COVID NOT WITH COVID' stuff

There’s also the very peculiar thing where some of the conspiracists clearly find other conspiracists to be foolish or misguided, because A believes one thing and not another, while B believes one part of one thing and dismisses the rest, and C thinks that A’s sources are rubbish and their own sources are far superior. So there’s a kind of clever-stupid hierarchy even within the group, which somehow mimics the larger picture of Troofers vs Sheeple, and works to further entrench each sector.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Yeah, some have called it a meta-conspiracy in that it enables lots of other 'free floating' nonsense to be brought together under its umbrella, each single one reinforcing the others: anti-vax, 5G, social control by elites, nanobots, etc.

Free floating nonsense

 

[LDC]

Also this stuff usually just floats about with nothing to anchor it to daily life or anything happening in people's actual real lives. I think that's why the 5G stuff flared up a bit, there were actual masts being installed, and with the pandemic there is something that's impacting everyone's lives that they can physically do something about, or when they mention it everyone knows exactly what they're talking about straight away, which must be a novelty for them tbh. That and it has gathered people from a number of different areas with different concerns into one cause.

 

[8ball]

This stuff seems to be popular with 'born again' Christians. It feeds their beliefs about the anti-christ, satanic influences and the end of the world. There's very little point trying to reason with them as they think they are the chosen few who can see the truth and the rest of us have been sucked into the dark side.

Yeah, I was aware of how many of these people call themselves Christians, but have only recently noticed how far it seems to have penetrated the evangelical lot.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Also this stuff usually just floats about with nothing to anchor it to daily life or anything happening in people's actual real lives. I think that's why the 5G stuff flared up a bit, there were actual masts being installed, and with the pandemic there is something that impacting everyone's lives that they can physically do something about. That and it has gathered people from a number of different areas with different concerns into one cause.

Yes. This need for connection and common cause is deeply powerful and significant for us humans. I wonder if some of this ersatz, pathological and abstract connection is in part triggered by the increasing separation we all experience in the modern internet age, and then furthered by the lockdown.

Their connection to each other is primarily via the internet (those thunderingly tedious videos get 10s of 1000s of views, and some channels put them out almost daily.) but then they have to go out to meet at marches and demos in order to feel real and strengthen their commitment. Like going to church to sing.

 

[8ball]

I definitely think that there are aspects of this that have hooked people in who don't believe in the usual conspiracy theories LynnDoyleCooper

Tbf we’ve had a very weird year where a lot of people who generally lead very ‘grounded’ lives have been spending way too much time on the internet.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Tbf we’ve had a very weird year where a lot of people who generally lead very ‘grounded’ lives have been spending way too much time on the internet.

Yes. I think some of it is a kind of filling-in-the-gaps because we’ve been starved of stimuli

“Join the dots!” is basically telling people to create their own local apophenia.

 

[8ball]

Yes. I think some of it is a kind of filling-in-the-gaps because we’ve been starved of stimuli

“Join the dots!” is basically telling people to create their own local apophenia.

Then you filter the results a few times through some message groups, get some variation and recombination going til it no longer intuitively resembles something that is likely made up by a single person, keep rinsing and repeating...

It’s a much more intensive and efficient religion-generator than the old fashioned way that used to rely on a traumatic event, a few decades of auld bullshitters getting confused and confusing each other, and the steady conflation of stories recanted and elaborated orally via hazier and hazier memories.

 

[frogwoman]

There's also the fact everyone has their lives disrupted by covid but a lot of people still don't know anyone who has had it.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I do wonder how much of this is actually a kind of substitute for organised religion. Y’know, how does one work around the god-shaped hole in the human mind (of some people) in a secular world? Some people go directly to god(s), but what about those others who fancy themselves to be rational enough to be atheist, but still have that itch?

 

[8ball]

I do wonder how much of this is actually a kind of substitute for organised religion. Y’know, how does one work around the god-shaped hole in the human mind (of some people) in a secular world? Some people go directly to god(s), but what about those others who fancy themselves to be rational enough to be atheist, but still have that itch?

There’s plenty of stuff out there.
Is Crossfit still popular?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

There's also the fact everyone has their lives disrupted by covid but a lot of people still don't know anyone who has had it.

Yes. So “believing” in Covid looks irrational. Especially when trust in authority, government etc has been broken, not just by shitty politicians and shitty politics but also by the Savile scandal,, antifreeze in the wine, any amount of other shit that undermines it all, with nothing meaningful or powerful enough to replace it. all that broken trust, looking for a place to cuddle up and find safety.

Brexit will save us! ...oh... now what....? with infinite reiteration.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

There’s plenty of stuff out there.
Is Crossfit still popular?

But we can’t because Covid Covid Covid ! So now we kill the thing that stands between us and the thing that saves us.

 

[8ball]

But we can’t because Covid Covid Covid ! So now we kill the thing that stands between us and the thing that save some us

Good point - was thinking with my Pre-Covid brain for a sec there.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Good point - was thinking with my Pre-Covid brain for a sec there.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Tbf we’ve had a very weird year where a lot of people who generally lead very ‘grounded’ lives have been spending way too much time on the internet.

You talking about me?

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah SheilaNaGig although a lot of this stuff looks irrational but a central theme of it is antisemitism which is p deeply ingrained in culture and politics on both the right and left, and more prominent in the last few years. The qanon adrenochrome stuff is just the warmed up blood libel and it basically repeats the claims Icke and co have been banging on about for years. Really doesn't bode well tbh, I feel pretty anxious about it especially because a lot of Jewish people are seeing much more hassle.

And then there's stuff like paedophilia and as you said there's all sorts of stuff like Epstein and the Savile scandal where people just got away with doing heinous shit for years.

Surprisingly though quite a few of my mates who have been a bit conspiracy minded in the past have been more or less on the same page as me re covid this time, and the opposite has been the case for a few people I wouldn't have expected.