Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[gentlegreen]

I was wondering if anyone knew of recent and comprehensive studies on the effectiveness and safety of the Covid vaccine. I'm running into an increasing number of people who claim they were adversely affected. They're describing things like strokes, blood clots, and aggressive cancers which occurred soon after uptake of the vaccine. While I listen to anecdotal accounts, I'd like the see some studies. The MRNA vaccines have been out long enough to assess results.

Same old same old - see also "switching to a carnivore diet cured XYZ".
A sceptic posted a link to a paper about a potential clotting mechanism - presumably regarding the AZ / J&J vaccines - then another idiot in the room suggested the SARS-COV2 was "repurposed H1N1" and was a retrovirus....

The conspiraloon blood clots thing was disgusting - photos supplied by embalmers...

At this stage I leave people to do what the hell they like.
I get vaccinated, mask in shops and transport ..

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Same old same old - see also "switching to a carnivore diet cured XYZ".
A sceptic posted a link to a paper about a potential clotting mechanism - presumably regarding the AZ / J&J vaccines - then another idiot in the room suggested the SARS-COV2 was "repurposed H1N1" and was a retrovirus....

The conspiraloon blood clots thing was disgusting - photos supplied by embalmers...

At this stage I leave people to do what the hell they like.
I get vaccinated, mask in shops and transport ..

You'll excuse me if I want to see that data before forming an opinion.

 

[gentlegreen]

You'll excuse me if I want to see that data before forming an opinion.

I haven't read it, but it's rare - and wasn't it just the DNA vector vaccines ?

Protein interaction causing rare but deadly vaccine-related clotting found

A mechanism that led some patients to experience cases of deadly clotting following some types of COVID-19 vaccination has been identified in new research.

www.sciencedaily.com

PF4 activates the c-Mpl–Jak2 pathway in platelets

PF4 activates the thrombopoietin receptor c-Mpl in platelets, resulting in JAK2-STAT3/5 signaling.Inhibition of kinase activity of JAK2 abrogates platelet

ashpublications.org

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I haven't read it, but it's rare - and wasn't it just the DNA vector vaccines ?

Protein interaction causing rare but deadly vaccine-related clotting found

A mechanism that led some patients to experience cases of deadly clotting following some types of COVID-19 vaccination has been identified in new research.

www.sciencedaily.com

PF4 activates the c-Mpl–Jak2 pathway in platelets

PF4 activates the thrombopoietin receptor c-Mpl in platelets, resulting in JAK2-STAT3/5 signaling.Inhibition of kinase activity of JAK2 abrogates platelet

ashpublications.org

Thank you. I shall read those.

What I have seen is a continuation of excess deaths and a sharp decline in life expectancy in the US. There must be some reason(s) that explains those numbers.

 

[gentlegreen]

Thank you. I shall read those.

What I have seen is a continuation of excess deaths and a sharp decline in life expectancy in the US. There must be some reason for that.

Indeed everything except the covid vaccine

There are several Scientist Youtubers I half follow on this sort of thing ...
This is the only channel I still bother with - she covers "excess deaths" etc...

https://www.youtube.com/@Backtothescience/featured

 

[elbows]

The Oxford AstraZenica vaccine was found to cause blood clots which is why they imposed age limits on its use in the UK after this showed up, and then quietly dropped its use here altogether. It was still a fairly rare effect but thats absolutely no consolation to those who lost a loved one etc, since that vaccine was given to huge numbers of people here the very small percentage still translated into a fair number of cases.

Note that the above vaccine was not an mRNA one.

I havent kept up with broader research. And you never get a perfect picture for all sorts of reasons. It is always expected that a minority of people will suffer some kind of side effect, but actually managing to correctly identify whether there was a direct correlation between the vaccine and later health problems is not an easy matter to resolve in many cases.

 

[elbows]

What I have seen is a continuation of excess deaths and a sharp decline in life expectancy in the US. There must be some reason(s) that explains those numbers.

Show me the figures you've been looking at for that and I will be happy to discuss in detail. Because I am into the subject of excess deaths in general, not just from a vaccine angle, so I can describe some other reasons but I want to see the same data as you first.

 

[elbows]

Fuck me, I've started to study US deaths from all causes by age group, the picture is terrible!

More analysis in the coming days, but there is no way its caused by vaccines (though may be caused in greeat part by a lack of vaccine update & booster uptake) because other countries that have done shitloads of vaccines & boosters arent seeing a picture this bad. And if vaccines were responsible for a significant chunk of the ugly picture, it would be hard for authorities to hide the fact that something bad was happening due to the sheer scale of the deaths issue.

One way I can try to reveal something using this basic data is to look at thedeath picture over time in different states. eg if I compare a few states which have lower vaccine/booster uptake with ones that have done much better on that front.

 

[elbows]

Some of the other possible causes:

The aforementioned failure to sufficiently reduce the number of people still susceptible to the worst effects of covid itself.
Acceleration of trends already seen before the pandemic (eg drug deaths)
Economic conditions
Any ongoing decline in the ability to offer decent healthcare
At certain points in time waves of other infections such as flu will have affected the data, and this was an issue in winter 2022-23 in particular. But of course this will show up mostly during flu season rather than in the grim year-round pictures we see in the data.

Comparing New York City to other places might also be useful. Because the deaths data shows just how late the lockdown action was taken there relative to the wave timing and incredible size of their first covid wave. Not only did this cause an insane death spike, the relative size of which was not seen in many other places in the USA in the first wave, but it would also be expected to have a lasting impact on the covid-related death picture afterwards. Because so many susceptible people died in the first wave in NYC that they werent then available as a group that remained susceptible and could die from covid later. And so many other people caught it that when then combined with later vaccination programmes, hybrid immunity levels would be pretty high compared to places where far less people were infected with covid in the first year, an especially big issue if those other places then also suffered from relatively low vaccine uptake.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

2020-2021 Excess Deaths in the U.S. General Population by Age and Sex

This is an update of a report published originally in June 20211 comparing total U.S. population mortality to baseline expectations by age and sex. The report now includes U.S. population numbers through August 17, 2022, so the years 2020 and 2021 are now mostly complete.

www.soa.org

Fuck me, I've started to study US deaths from all causes by age group, the picture is terrible!

Yep. Life expectancy is dropping like a rock in the US. And your first take on it was that I was some kind of nutter (I might very well be, but not that kind of nutter).

Here is a couple of articles I found on liver complications and COVID:

COVID-19 and liver disease: mechanistic and clinical perspectives - PubMed

Our understanding of the hepatic consequences of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection and its resultant coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) has evolved rapidly since the onset of the pandemic. In this Review, we discuss the hepatotropism of SARS-CoV-2, including...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

SARS-CoV-2 Infection and Liver Disease: A Review of Pathogenesis and Outcomes - PubMed

The impact of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic has been immense, and it continues to have lasting repercussions. While the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) virus primarily infects the respiratory system, other organ systems are affected, including the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I know a number of people who have turned up with liver complications in the last year so I started looking into it. Most of these people are older, don't drink alcohol, and did not have serious disease prior to the last year.

 

[elbows]

Thanks for the info.

I'd say there is very little chance of unpicking the vaccine picture from the hideous perfect storm that covid and other factors dealt the USA in particular. The nature of the healthcare system, the underlying health and vulnerabilities of the population, including obesity, combined with the politicisation of vaccines and a bunch of other issues has doomed the USA to suffer especially badly from the virus itself and all the other knock on consequences. And although various forms of data and news stories about this have faded away in more recent times, actually a lot of this stuff is still bubbling away.

The UK has a number of similar problems which mean our death picture has also not returned to what it was pre-pandemic, but even so the basic data isnt as stark as some of the US data is. Some of these long term issues would have happened even without the pandemic, due for example to ageing population and an eroded health service, but the pandemic amplified these things.

 

[elbows]

What sort of vaccine booster campaigns have been happening in the USA in more recent years?

The UK has done ok on this side of things, although uptake has fallen as expected as the years go by.

We had bad flu last winter too, which means that total deaths so far this year are still higher than 2022's figure, although the gap has been reducing in more recent months as our covid deaths finally fell to less statistically significant levels. Bu then 2022 was also a bad year for us because our health service was especially broken in 2022 and so we had more deaths in summer that year than usual.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Thanks for the info.

I'd say there is very little chance of unpicking the vaccine picture from the hideous perfect storm that covid and other factors dealt the USA in particular. The nature of the healthcare system, the underlying health and vulnerabilities of the population, including obesity, combined with the politicisation of vaccines and a bunch of other issues has doomed the USA to suffer especially badly from the virus itself and all the other knock on consequences. And although various forms of data and news stories about this have faded away in more recent times, actually a lot of this stuff is still bubbling away.

Yes, that's my preliminary conclusion, but there are better number crunchers than me around that can tease out meaning from the raw data. We also have an RSV version going around that may be adding to our mortality numbers. Its all been a perfect storm of causation pushing lifespan numbers down since 2018.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

What sort of vaccine booster campaigns have been happening in the USA in more recent years?

The UK has done ok on this side of things, although uptake has fallen as expected as the years go by.

We had bad flu last winter too, which means that total deaths so far this year are still higher than 2022's figure, although the gap has been reducing in more recent months as our covid deaths finally fell to less statistically significant levels. Bu then 2022 was also a bad year for us because our health service was especially broken in 2022 and so we had more deaths in summer that year than usual.

We're on our fifth booster. The last one that came out a couple of months ago has only had a 3% uptake rate. The earlier versions got up around 65%, but have gone down with each new version.

 

[elbows]

Heres some charts I've prepared from US data. Weekly deaths from all causes by age group, going back to the start of 2015. The USA figures are 'not final' for 2020 onwards but they were the best I could find.

In this first comparison I'm showing England & Wales. Sorry that the colours and age groups arent the same. The England & Wales data also extends further into 2023 than the USA data. US dates are in US format (month first)


England & Wales:



USA:

 

[elbows]

And now the same data but by state:

New York City with the dramatic first wave spike (gives some covid death scale clues to idiots who still wonder what would have happened without lockdowns or if lockdowns in UK had for example been even later and/or weaker):



New York State:



Florida:



Texas:

 

[elbows]

Some thoughts based on the more obvious features of those graphs:

New York City is not like the others, and not just in terms of size of first peak.

England & Wales managed to get their death levels post-lockdowns to resemble the normal summer dip in deaths. In the last couple of years the summer dip patterns seen in every previous year have not been like they were-pre pandemic, which isnt a great sign. But in the USA and some states in the USA this picture is even worse, in some cases your summer death levels are about as high as some of their pre-pandemic winter peaks used to be!!!

I can claim that the positive effects of vaccines show up in these charts, combined with a bunch of other factors. In some states in the USA the consequences of low vaccine uptake rates in vulnerable populations may well be a part of the picture shown, along with other factors. If we suspected there were any negative effects of vaccines showing up in this data, we'd want to look at even more different states side by side in an attempt to help prove or disprove this possibility.

 

[elbows]

The USA data came from the download on this page. They have now discontinued this particular dataset!

Weekly Counts of Deaths by Jurisdiction and Age | Data | Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

data.cdc.gov

The England & Wales data comes from our ONS weekly reports. Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

The USA data came from the download on this page. They have now discontinued this particular dataset!

Weekly Counts of Deaths by Jurisdiction and Age | Data | Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

data.cdc.gov

The England & Wales data comes from our ONS weekly reports. Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional - Office for National Statistics

I generally consider CDC numbers correct, but they tend to lag quite a bit. The Society of Actuaries tends to have good data:

2020-2021 Excess Deaths in the U.S. General Population by Age and Sex

This is an update of a report published originally in June 20211 comparing total U.S. population mortality to baseline expectations by age and sex. The report now includes U.S. population numbers through August 17, 2022, so the years 2020 and 2021 are now mostly complete.

www.soa.org

Here's a couple of articles that tries to pull the stats together:

Unexpected Deaths in The US Are Rising at an Alarming Rate

People in the US are dying at higher rates than in other similar high-income countries, and that difference is only growing.

www.sciencealert.com

Excess death gap widens between U.S. and Europe, study finds

A new analysis shows that, compared to similarly high-income European countries, the United States continues to have substantially higher death rates at all but the oldest ages, resulting in more 'excess deaths,' and this gap widened during the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[editor]

The rise of the idiots

‘No no no. Avoid them all’: anti-vaccine conspiracies spread as UK cases of measles increase

Online anti-vaxxers, conflating Covid and MMR theories, are convincing parents against immunising their children

www.theguardian.com

 

[cupid_stunt]

The rise of the idiots

‘No no no. Avoid them all’: anti-vaccine conspiracies spread as UK cases of measles increase

Online anti-vaxxers, conflating Covid and MMR theories, are convincing parents against immunising their children

www.theguardian.com

But she doesn’t know who to trust. “I’ve done some research but feel like a lot of the info on the web is pro-vaccine,” she writes.

Done her own research, but didn't like the fact that the MMR vaccine is safe, so fucked off down the rabbit hole.

 

[editor]

Some woman started to chatting me in a Brixton cafe recently. She was anti vaxx because "she ate well, was healthy and looked after herself" and - wait for it - slept with her body at a 45 degree angle and that's proven to keep you free from disease. I didn't really know where to go with that one, neither was I entirely sure how this 45 degree angle was achieved with accuracy.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

and - wait for it - slept with her body at a 45 degree angle and that's proven to keep you free from disease

and what's more

 

[Elpenor]

Some woman started to chatting me in a Brixton cafe recently. She was anti vaxx because "she ate well, was healthy and looked after herself" and - wait for it - slept with her body at a 45 degree angle and that's proven to keep you free from disease. I didn't really know where to go with that one, neither was I entirely sure how this 45 degree angle was achieved with accuracy.

I would like to know more about the 45 degree angle thing, is it her feet angled down at 45 degrees, or is it her head?

I reckon the latter

 

[editor]

I would like to know more about the 45 degree angle thing, is it her feet angled down at 45 degrees, or is it her head?

I reckon the latter

I think it's the angle of your legs to your body but I really wasn't mindful to hear more.

 

[Aladdin]

.edited

 

[klang]

Best of luck Aladdin!

 

[Griff]

All the best Aladdin.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Some woman started to chatting me in a Brixton cafe recently. She was anti vaxx because "she ate well, was healthy and looked after herself" and - wait for it - slept with her body at a 45 degree angle and that's proven to keep you free from disease. I didn't really know where to go with that one, neither was I entirely sure how this 45 degree angle was achieved with accuracy.

Would that be 45 degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

.edited

If that was a bit private, please feel free to PM me.