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Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

sorry to hear about your sister, must be tough at times. sounds like she is not full wack "plandemic" "trying to enslave/kill us" though. there are of course nuances to anti vax beliefs, like your sister. my posts refer to the infamous "truther" movement (and I think it can be called a movement) who have viewed covid in deeply conspiritual terms since teh start. people might say they are not a movement, too disparate. but i think there's a certain kind of strand of the Trump right who do kind of gather round this horseshit and I do think they are not as meaningless and sparse as some think.
Thanks, though I suspect she does think that way. She said some stuff at the beginning of all this about culling people and I suspect she also has fallen for that nonsense about 5G masts. She keeps her thoughts about this to herself now, as do I, so I don’t really know what she thinks about it now - I bury my head in the sand and just don’t bring anything up that she might be touchy about. It’s a difficult subject to bring up as she has quite severe CPTSD and it’s impossible to disagree with her about anything, even if I’m conciliatory and quiet/gentle about broaching it.
 
Thanks, though I suspect she does think that way. She said some stuff at the beginning of all this about culling people and I suspect she also has fallen for that nonsense about 5G masts. She keeps her thoughts about this to herself now, as do I, so I don’t really know what she thinks about it now - I bury my head in the sand and just don’t bring anything up that she might be touchy about. It’s a difficult subject to bring up as she has quite severe CPTSD and it’s impossible to disagree with her about anything, even if I’m conciliatory and quiet/gentle about broaching it.
on a wider level i guess the fact that we are all fundementally different and see things differently helps with this stuff. My place of work is filled with all sorts of people with all kinds of different political/social outlooks and there is a deep respect, solidarity, dare i say love amongst us. these thigns are never the whole person. sounds like she's knows that there's a difference there and respects it by keeping quiet. that's a way forward. good luck
 
I actually work at a uni where a vax was made during Covid. It’s just all sorts of ridiculous that that department is under sway by “the deep state”, especially when you have a bunch of other scientists world wide waiting to rip them to shed.

These fuckers give not one tiny shit about “reason”.

Yeah similarly - I've worked on grant applications for vaccine related projects. I had quite a good time once trying to get my conspiracy theory brother to explain where in the process people are brought into the conspiracy. Are the PhD students in on it? Post docs? Anyone doing a Biology GCSE? :hmm:
 
also a good neutral ground to talk to her about is the concept of "grifter" and "grift". It's taken a while for people to latch on to teh fact that many of the folk online, youtube, etc are not just mere activitists, whose existance online is to spread the truth and change society, using a wonderful free and neutral medium like social media, but that they are actually doing it to pay their mortgages and bills.
 
Yeah similarly - I've worked on grant applications for vaccine related projects. I had quite a good time once trying to get my conspiracy theory brother to explain where in the process people are brought into the conspiracy. Are the PhD students in on it? Post docs? Anyone doing a Biology GCSE? :hmm:
if you want an answer to those sort of questions you should consult the internet, not your sibling.
 
Yeah similarly - I've worked on grant applications for vaccine related projects. I had quite a good time once trying to get my conspiracy theory brother to explain where in the process people are brought into the conspiracy. Are the PhD students in on it? Post docs? Anyone doing a Biology GCSE? :hmm:
i always want to ask how fucking massive the "Planning the Plandemic" whatsapp group must be. settings>silent notifications.
 
also a good neutral ground to talk to her about is the concept of "grifter" and "grift". It's taken a while for people to latch on to teh fact that many of the folk online, youtube, etc are not just mere activitists, whose existance online is to spread the truth and change society, using a wonderful free and neutral medium like social media, but that they are actually doing it to pay their mortgages and bills.
That works both way though, so those with platforms that debunk conspiracy theories will also be labelled as grifters.
I’ve previously, with other people, tried drawing attention to the concepts of confirmation bias and apophenia, but such stuff never lands as no one is free of either, whatever their views
 
ah truther facebook groups. i remember back in early covid following a local barber who was an absoloute fucking lunatic and he had about 30k followers listening to his live stream 😆 😆
 
ah truther facebook groups. i remember back in early covid following a local barber who was an absoloute fucking lunatic and he had about 30k followers listening to his live stream 😆 😆
You need a bit of inane chit chat when you're having your hair cut.

But that barber will have suffered as a self employed person during lockdown. No punters, his landlord may have still been charging full rent. If he didn't have three years of drawn up accounts, he would have been hit quite hard. It's this section of society that seem to be drawn into the conspiracy world more than others, maybe as they were somewhat abandoned by the government during the pandemic.
 
This is what vaccine hesitancy, to put it politely, is doing. It’s not just a ‘personal choice’ - it’s doing huge damage to public health and the NHS, endangering vulnerable people who have inefficient immune systems through no fault of their own and are unable to get vaccines themselves.
It really boils my blood. I suspect this issue has irreparably damagd my relationship with my sister, who is sceptical about vaccines.

The measles thing gives me a chance to moan about the fucking Telegraph again. Because I note that even when they write a mostly very sensible piece about vaccines and Measles, the headline and a paragraph or two is smeared with shit in order to serve the long-standing agenda of that newspaper.


Non-paywalled version:


Im not going to quote any of the sensible parts of the article, just the stuff that stands out in stark contrast.

The dodgy headline: "Measles is surging again because Covid destroyed trust in the medical establishment"

And the dodgy bit from the body of the article. I've had to include a non-dodgy bit at the start so that whats said later is in context:

The sad truth when it comes to the MMR and other vaccines is that health chiefs are battling two new, indomitable forces. The first is social media, which is obviously more reliable than every learned physician in the country combined and would have continued to erode vaccination numbers even without the pandemic. The second is, of course, Covid, which may have permanently damaged the public’s trust in vaccines.

I have more patience with those who offer up the latter as the main reason behind their vaccine hesitancy. The scale of misinformation out there (much of it, again, online) was unlike anything we have been forced to contend with before. Couple that with the facts we were being given – by scientists, no less – changing day by day, and you can see how deeply this would dent the public’s confidence in the powers that be.

Anyone presenting this as their defence, however, is conflating two things. With Covid, it was a moving situation, with scientists piecing together a jigsaw piece by piece – the sketchy first moments being at a significant remove from the final picture.

Fuck off you distorting bullshitters. The basic scientific facts about covid were known from the early days and unlike what the fucking Telegraph would have us believe, did not change. Early back of the envelope calculations about fatality rates, hospitalisation rates, age profiles in regards who was at most risk actually stood the test of time rather well. Rather, the stuff that changed over time with covid was political stuff, policy stuff, and attempts by the establishment to bullshit their way out of inconvenient realities of covid. ie the original shit 'let it rip' policy of this countries government, the lies about not understanding how important asymptomatic transmission was, and the deliberate downplaying of airborn transmission and the wearing of masks during the period where they didnt want to have to implement policies to deal with the realities on those fronts, including PPE stockpile limitations. There were plenty of scientists who always understood what the realities were likely to be on those fronts, so they didnt have to u-turn later, there was no need for a huge evolution in their positions because the science never changed. Even things like Long covid were expected, and it was just the finer details that needed to be determined over time. It wasnt an overall science failing, it was a political failing. Granted during such times there will be establishment scientists who try to play along with the governments desired version of reality, and those shits did have to u-turn later, but this is not the same phenomenon as the Telegraph would have us believe. Theres a valid lesser version of this, where science and politics met in ugly and dangerous compromise, that is arguably true, eg the WHO didnt do themselves any favours with some of their early advice and how long it took them to correct it, but to do this justice you have to get into the detail and the Telegraph doesnt even bother to give any examples of what they are referring to.

Presumably thats because what the Telegraph are actually hinting at is their own entirely distorted version of reality, one where we 'overreacted' to Covid, and all the policies the Telegraph didnt like (lockdowns etc) were later shown to be entirely unnecessary. Well actually the world of science doesnt support this version of reality. And its a disgusting spectacle to see the Telegraph doing articles like this where they still want to be on the right side of the overall vaccine debate, but are actually part of the problem when it comes to misinformation and encouraging distrust in medical authorities and policies. The fucking nerve of it. Its not just the most wacky of conspiracy theories that undermines trust, the Telegraphs way of poisoning the well on such issues is insidious and can do just as much harm, reaching groups that might not buy into conspiracy shit but may find it tempting to buy into 'overreaction' right wing pandemic narratives. Plus over time the likes of the Telegraph learnt how to twist almost any covid news story into something that could support their position and that might sound vaguely reasonable to partially-informed readers who shared some of the same sorts of bias as the Telegraph itself. If you convince people that the reaction to covid was an overreaction, then that has consequences for vaccination campaigns too. There is always a risk-reward balance with vaccines, so if people think that the disease risk was overstated then their sense of that balance shifts, and they may end up thinking it was inappropriate for as many people to get the covid vaccine as did.
 
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I actually work at a uni where a vax was made during Covid. It’s just all sorts of ridiculous that that department is under sway by “the deep state”, especially when you have a bunch of other scientists world wide waiting to rip them to shed.

These fuckers give not one tiny shit about “reason”.

The virologist who took me into our "secret" (in that we just don't make a lot of noise about it) COVID lab (funded/maintained as part of UK-GOV emergency provision) was a Palestinian expat who had served time under the Israelis for revolutionary activity.

One of our biggest individual funders for health-research is actually Bill Gates :oops: but for balance, the late Terry Pratchett also left us a very large amount of money and actually visited regularly/participated until his failing health prevented it. Bill has yet to put-in an appearance.

Think what the Truthers would make of that..! :D
 
The measles thing gives me a chance to moan about the fucking Telegraph again. Because I note that even when they write a mostly very sensible piece about vaccines and Measles, the headline and a paragraph or two is smeared with shit in order to serve the long-standing agenda of that newspaper.


Non-paywalled version:


Im not going to quote any of the sensible parts of the article, just the stuff that stands out in stark contrast.

The dodgy headline: "Measles is surging again because Covid destroyed trust in the medical establishment"

And the dodgy bit from the body of the article. I've had to include a non-dodgy bit at the start so that whats said later is in context:



Fuck off you distorting bullshitters. The basic scientific facts about covid were known from the early days and unlike what the fucking Telegraph would have us believe, did not change. Early back of the envelope calculations about fatality rates, hospitalisation rates, age profiles in regards who was at most risk actually stood the test of time rather well. Rather, the stuff that changed over time with covid was political stuff, policy stuff, and attempts by the establishment to bullshit their way out of inconvenient realities of covid. ie the original shit 'let it rip' policy of this countries government, the lies about not understanding how important asymptomatic transmission was, and the deliberate downplaying of airborn transmission and the wearing of masks during the period where they didnt want to have to implement policies to deal with the realities on those fronts, including PPE stockpile limitations. There were plenty of scientists who always understood what the realities were likely to be on those fronts, so they didnt have to u-turn later, there was no need for a huge evolution in their positions because the science never changed. Even things like Long covid were expected, and it was just the finer details that needed to be determined over time. It wasnt an overall science failing, it was a political failing. Granted during such times there will be establishment scientists who try to play along with the governments desired version of reality, and those shits did have to u-turn later, but this is not the same phenomenon as the Telegraph would have us believe. Theres a valid lesser version of this, where science and politics met in ugly and dangerous compromise, that is arguably true, eg the WHO didnt do themselves any favours with some of their early advice and how long it took them to correct it, but to do this justice you have to get into the detail and the Telegraph doesnt even bother to give any examples of what they are referring to.

Presumably thats because what the Telegraph are actually hinting at is their own entirely distorted version of reality, one where we 'overreacted' to Covid, and all the policies the Telegraph didnt like (lockdowns etc) were later shown to be entirely unnecessary. Well actually the world of science doesnt support this version of reality. And its a disgusting spectacle to see the Telegraph doing articles like this where they still want to be on the right side of the overall vaccine debate, but are actually part of the problem when it comes to misinformation and encouraging distrust in medical authorities and policies. The fucking nerve of it. Its not just the most wacky of conspiracy theories that undermines trust, the Telegraphs way of poisoning the well on such issues is insidious and can do just as much harm, reaching groups that might not buy into conspiracy shit but may find it tempting to buy into 'overreaction' right wing pandemic narratives. Plus over time the likes of the Telegraph learnt how to twist almost any covid news story into something that could support their position and that might sound vaguely reasonable to partially-informed readers who shared some of the same sorts of bias as the Telegraph itself. If you convince people that the reaction to covid was an overreaction, then that has consequences for vaccination campaigns too. There is always a risk-reward balance with vaccines, so if people think that the disease risk was overstated then their sense of that balance shifts, and they may end up thinking it was inappropriate for as many people to get the covid vaccine as did.
Woah there...quite a post!
As uncomfortable as it is the DT sort of has a point....I say sort of because my personal observation is people's trust in the medical hasn't been destroyed as they claim, but the public do have "over vaccinated fatigue syndrome" and some aspects of the covid vaccine was rolled has to take some blame for this weariness and this has fed into the measles situation.
 
Woah there...quite a post!
As uncomfortable as it is the DT sort of has a point....I say sort of because my personal observation is people's trust in the medical hasn't been destroyed as they claim, but the public do have "over vaccinated fatigue syndrome" and some aspects of the covid vaccine was rolled has to take some blame for this weariness and this has fed into the measles situation.
Nothing to do with all the right-wing anti-vaxxers scaring the shit out of people with all the tales of death following 'needless' vaccines for a 'fake' virus then?
 
Woah there...quite a post!
As uncomfortable as it is the DT sort of has a point....I say sort of because my personal observation is people's trust in the medical hasn't been destroyed as they claim, but the public do have "over vaccinated fatigue syndrome" and some aspects of the covid vaccine was rolled has to take some blame for this weariness and this has fed into the measles situation.

You have it backwards. Andrew Wakefield and his 'MMR causes autism' bullshit was long before covid, I'd argue it formed a huge part of the background that has since encouraged vaccine hesitancy more generally as well as throughout covid.

Also, what exactly is 'over vaccinated fatigue syndrome'? Is that a medical term, or just a thing you read on Facebook?

  • I've got a headache
  • Have a paracetamol then..
  • Nah I've had enough of those, I'll just go on with the headache thanks.

  • Shit I've cut myself!
  • Here's some TCP and a plaster..
  • Nah I've had enough of that, I'll just go on bleeding and getting infected thanks.


((((medicine fatigue sufferers))))
 
You have it backwards. Andrew Wakefield and his 'MMR causes autism' bullshit was long before covid, I'd argue it formed a huge part of the background that has since encouraged vaccine hesitancy more generally as well as throughout covid.

Also, what exactly is 'over vaccinated fatigue syndrome'? Is that a medical term, or just a thing you read on Facebook?

  • I've got a headache
  • Have a paracetamol then..
  • Nah I've had enough of those, I'll just go on with the headache thanks.

  • Shit I've cut myself!
  • Here's some TCP and a plaster..
  • Nah I've had enough of that, I'll just go on bleeding and getting infected thanks.


((((medicine fatigue sufferers))))
Wakefield wanted to push a separate measles vax he'd patent plus a test to sue governments for MMR giving toddlers autism.


and

 
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