Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[Thesaint]

You have it backwards. Andrew Wakefield and his 'MMR causes autism' bullshit was long before covid, I'd argue it formed a huge part of the background that has since encouraged vaccine hesitancy more generally as well as throughout covid.

Also, what exactly is 'over vaccinated fatigue syndrome'? Is that a medical term, or just a thing you read on Facebook?

• I've got a headache
• Have a paracetamol then..
• Nah I've had enough of those, I'll just go on with the headache thanks.

• Shit I've cut myself!
• Here's some TCP and a plaster..
• Nah I've had enough of that, I'll just go on bleeding and getting infected thanks.

((((medicine fatigue sufferers))))

The Wakefield saga was 25 years ago now, and had a small impact on uptake with MMR, which given the severity of the claims he made the effect was remarkably small considering. Uptake recovered to previous levels, so has had even less long term impact, so cant be the basis of and background hestitancy now.

The Telegraph isnt generally read by people with very young kids so unlikely to be them either. A quick google on the subject suggests the DT are mostly participating in the standard "experts warn distaster awaits" clickbait too.

Given the DT nor Wakefield are influencial, any downturn in MMR uptake has to be something else. Even then, any present downturn might not even be that much in the big scheme of things, but a background weariness of post covid expereinces could well have a bigger impact (if any) than DT or Wakefield.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The anti-vaxx movement was pretty much born due to Wakefield and they never went away in the intervening years. They were very active in discouraging uptake of the covid vaccine through social media and youtube videos and what not. it isn't a separate phenomena. Although I agree people are hesitant for other reasons also.

 

[pogofish]

The Wakefield saga was 25 years ago now, and had a small impact on uptake with MMR, which given the severity of the claims he made the effect was remarkably small considering. Uptake recovered to previous levels, so has had even less long term impact, so cant be the basis of and background hestitancy now.

Remember how long it dragged-on for though. He might have published in 1998 but it wasn't until 2010 that he was struck-off but he then continued funding himself from the States with what has become the model for much of the wider anti-vaxx/"resistance" movement.

The cumulative effect of Wakefield and his ilk and the channels they formed for disseminating their disinformation is IMO a very important factor in what came next.

 

[pogofish]

When the British bombed, the Germans ran for cover. When the Germans bombed, the British ran for cover. When the Americans bombed, everyone ran for cover

A former neighbour, a sweet old guy and moderately successful artist was in WWII, one of the cartographic team who prepared the target maps for RAF precision bombing raids.

His take was that they sent the RAF squadrons in first to accurately pick-off the main targets, with the Americans flying behind to obliterate as much as possible of everything else, including anything the RAF might have missed!

 

[Thesaint]

The anti-vaxx movement was pretty much born due to Wakefield and they never went away in the intervening years. They were very active in discouraging uptake of the covid vaccine through social media and youtube videos and what not. it isn't a separate phenomena. Although I agree people are hesitant for other reasons also.

The obsession of blaming anti vaxxers is akin to blaming George Soros (or whoever) for all the world's ills, in the end. While both do exist it's easy to get carried away crediting with more than they deserve.

When it comes to MMR uptake Wakefield had a smaller % impact than most realise even though it extended a decade, and the impact anyone had discouraging covid vaccine was equally less than people imagine - I think the ONS was reports almost universal uptake in the critical over 75s for example, so clearly they had no meaningful impact.

 

[cupid_stunt]

 

[existentialist]

The obsession of blaming anti vaxxers is akin to blaming George Soros (or whoever) for all the world's ills, in the end. While both do exist it's easy to get carried away crediting with more than they deserve.

Your obsession is my noble cause.

And, TBF, you seem to be rather obsessed with it.

 

[Orang Utan]

The Wakefield saga was 25 years ago now, and had a small impact on uptake with MMR, which given the severity of the claims he made the effect was remarkably small considering. Uptake recovered to previous levels, so has had even less long term impact, so cant be the basis of and background hestitancy now.

The Telegraph isnt generally read by people with very young kids so unlikely to be them either. A quick google on the subject suggests the DT are mostly participating in the standard "experts warn distaster awaits" clickbait too.

Given the DT nor Wakefield are influencial, any downturn in MMR uptake has to be something else. Even then, any present downturn might not even be that much in the big scheme of things, but a background weariness of post covid expereinces could well have a bigger impact (if any) than DT or Wakefield.

Why would people be weary of vaccines?
surely people are more weary of Covid-19 and the return of Victorian diseases?

 

[Karl Masks]

was just listening to an interview with Colin Angus from the Shamens (they of Ebeneezer Goode infamy). Quite enjoyable listening to him (via an AI for some reason) until he started talking about 'face nappies' and made a weird 'arm spear' reference to the vaccine. I guess, given his musical history, it's no surprise he's a raving bellend. I still enjoy the Shamen, but he can fuck off.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

was just listening to an interview with Colin Angus from the Shamens (they of Ebeneezer Goode infamy). Quite enjoyable listening to him (via an AI for some reason) until he started talking about 'face nappies' and made a weird 'arm spear' reference to the vaccine. I guess, given his musical history, it's no surprise he's a raving bellend. I still enjoy the Shamen, but he can fuck off.

Yeah he’s well down the rabbit hole. The acid must have really gotten to him. Shame Will Sinnot died as he seemed more astute politically.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The obsession of blaming anti vaxxers is akin to blaming George Soros (or whoever) for all the world's ills, in the end. While both do exist it's easy to get carried away crediting with more than they deserve.

When it comes to MMR uptake Wakefield had a smaller % impact than most realise even though it extended a decade, and the impact anyone had discouraging covid vaccine was equally less than people imagine - I think the ONS was reports almost universal uptake in the critical over 75s for example, so clearly they had no meaningful impact.

Where are these facts coming from?

 

[existentialist]

Where are these facts coming from?

Somewhere the sun don't shine, is my guess.

 

[Plumdaff]

One of my daughter's friends is the child of a 'nutritionist' anti vaxxer who didn't believe in lockdowns etc because "it was just the old and the sick who were going to die". I don't see her very often as our kids are older, but I think she's further down the hole these days as her kid was telling my daughter last week that covid never actually existed.

Meanwhile, measles is a considerable public health issue locally.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Does anyone know if the loons have started banging on about Musk's brain implants being a trial, before the compulsory roll-out for all humans?

 

[Callie]

Does anyone know if the loons have started banging on about Musk's brain implants being a trial, before the compulsory roll-out for all humans?

No doubt many will object. No doubt they aren't directly effected by conditions for which it could significantly improve their lives.

 

[prunus]

Does anyone know if the loons have started banging on about Musk's brain implants being a trial, before the compulsory roll-out for all humans?

I did read somewhere recently that Musk's brain implants are a trial, before the compulsory roll-out for all humans, so yes I guess so.

 

[editor]

The Wakefield saga was 25 years ago now, and had a small impact on uptake with MMR, which given the severity of the claims he made the effect was remarkably small considering. Uptake recovered to previous levels, so has had even less long term impact, so cant be the basis of and background hestitancy now.

The Telegraph isnt generally read by people with very young kids so unlikely to be them either. A quick google on the subject suggests the DT are mostly participating in the standard "experts warn distaster awaits" clickbait too.

Given the DT nor Wakefield are influencial, any downturn in MMR uptake has to be something else. Even then, any present downturn might not even be that much in the big scheme of things, but a background weariness of post covid expereinces could well have a bigger impact (if any) than DT or Wakefield.

Utter nonsense:

The year 2008 has seen more outbreaks of mumps and measles in the USA, Canada, and UK, among other Western countries. Both diseases had been almost completely eradicated in the Western hemisphere before the 1990s because of the introduction of the measles mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine in 1979. What has driven this upsurge?
A decrease in 'uptake' of the MMR vaccine fuelled by vaccine skeptics is the main cause behind the resurgence of these diseases in recent years. In 1998, Andrew Wakefield and colleagues published a paper in The Lancet linking the MMR vaccine to autism. This coincided with a growing belief that environmental cues were causing the increase in autism. The anti-vaccine movement jumped on this, and the ensuing media frenzy continues to this day.

A case of junk science, conflict and hype - Nature Immunology

Despite accumulating evidence that vaccines are safe, vaccination uptake is falling, driving a resurgence in old scourges of society.

www.nature.com

Uptake rates for the combined measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine continue to suffer ten years on from when the alleged link with childhood autism were first raised.1,2 The role of the mass media in generating and sustaining this controversy should not overlooked as their reporting can leave parents confused and concerned.3,4

A local audit was carried out by the paediatric department of a district hospital in South Yorkshire using a simple questionnaire survey of mothers on the postnatal wards between November 18, 2002 and December 20, 2002. The aim of the questionnaire was to examine the sources of information used. There were 78 respondents with an average age of 27.7 years. The respondents were almost all of white ethnicity and native English speakers(76/78). 9% of women had university education, 42% ‘A’ levels and 45% had completed secondary education. The number of first time mothers compared to mothers with older children was roughly equal.

The role of the media and its effect on MMR uptake

www.bmj.com

There was a change in parental trust in Wakefield as an information source during the period covered in the review. In earlier papers, some parents were noted to value his research as an information source18,21 but, by 2012, his findings were widely discredited and there was an increasing anger towards him for creating fear among parents.26 However, in many other respects, despite an increase in MMR uptake since 2003,5 there is a little evidence of change in parental concerns throughout this period. Significantly, given the discrediting of Wakefield’ finding, the association between MMR and the development of autism recorded from papers published in 2001 remains in those published in 2012. This suggests that while more parents have been complying with policy, the same fears remain in their minds.

Parental decision-making in uptake of the MMR vaccination: a systematic review of qualitative literature

AbstractBackground. Controversy has surrounded MMR vaccination in the aftermath of Wakefield's 1998 paper suggesting links between MMR and the development of pe

academic.oup.com

 

[cupid_stunt]

I did read somewhere recently that Musk's brain implants are a trial, before the compulsory roll-out for all humans, so yes I guess so.

Oh, what have I started?

 

[two sheds]

Oh, what have I started?

YOU started it?

 

[elbows]

YOU started it?

Only because he had an implant that told him to start it.

 

[Thesaint]

Utter nonsense:

Is it? Take a look at the big picture here, Wakefield had a small effect on uptake for a period but the effect on the outcome was negligable. Iif his impact was to reduce uptake to under 50% the final result would then return the 1980s like case numbers but that didnt happen.

In anycase uptake returned back up to 90%+ so it seems many people in real life he is forgotten history. My key point isnt he had small effect on uptake nor his research was any good, but its incorrect to heap any more recent skeptiscm on him in more recent years.

Bringing this thread back on topic, the effect the "anti vaxxers" (which may include Wakefield fans) had on uptake is negligable:

Look at the uptake in the older age groups especially. - So its reasonable to conclude 'they' had no meaningful effect on outcome.

 

[editor]

Is it? Take a look at the big picture here, Wakefield had a small effect on uptake for a period but the effect on the outcome was negligable. Iif his impact was to reduce uptake to under 50% the final result would then return the 1980s like case numbers but that didnt happen.
View attachment 410602
In anycase uptake returned back up to 90%+ so it seems many people in real life he is forgotten history. My key point isnt he had small effect on uptake nor his research was any good, but its incorrect to heap any more recent skeptiscm on him in more recent years.

Bringing this thread back on topic, the effect the "anti vaxxers" (which may include Wakefield fans) had on uptake is negligable:
View attachment 410606
Look at the uptake in the older age groups especially. - So its reasonable to conclude 'they' had no meaningful effect on outcome.

So you're literally going to ignore the studies I posted up?

What Big Point are you trying to prove here?

 

[existentialist]

So you're literally going to ignore the studies I posted up?

What Big Point are you trying to prove here?

That there's nothing wrong with anti-vaxxers.

 

[prunus]

That there's nothing wrong with anti-vaxxers.

Not actually a provable proposition. And not just because there is a lot wrong.

 

[existentialist]

Not actually a provable proposition. And not just because there is a lot wrong.

You know that, I know that, editor knows that: we all know that. Our Little Friend probably knows that, too, but appears for some reason to have selected it as their personal Urban hobbyhorse.

 

[PR1Berske]

That there's nothing wrong with anti-vaxxers.

Oh boy.

 

[two sheds]

there's nothing wrong with anti-vaxxers

 

[Steel Icarus]

Out of context urban posts thread ----------->

 

[spitfire]

was just listening to an interview with Colin Angus from the Shamens (they of Ebeneezer Goode infamy). Quite enjoyable listening to him (via an AI for some reason) until he started talking about 'face nappies' and made a weird 'arm spear' reference to the vaccine. I guess, given his musical history, it's no surprise he's a raving bellend. I still enjoy the Shamen, but he can fuck off.

Happy to report Mr C was very pro vaccine and mask wearing during the pandemic.

 

[Karl Masks]

Happy to report Mr C was very pro vaccine and mask wearing during the pandemic.

Yes Mr A was not happy about that and that was the context for mentioning 'face nappies'.

Ebeneezer Bad