Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[Storm Fox]

Absolutely but there's a debate to be had (perhaps not on this thread) about where that balance is. This thread might be better: Do you support an Austria-style lockdown of those not fully vaccinated against Covid-19?

This is just silly. Sorry.

Why? If you own a smartphone then an authoritarian government can know exactly where you are. They don't need another app. There other methods I mentioned could be used too.

 

[magneze]

Well when you include outright falsehoods that's no surprise. You're not being forced to install any apps.

I believe the point being made there is that any digital vaccine passport would effectively mean that you would need to install an app in order to go about normal daily life. So not forced and not yet, but ... pretty close.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Neither do I. We need to be watchful. But that doesn't mean resisting everything on that one principle. A balance has to be struck. And yes, it is quite possible that governments may try to abuse the situation to their advantage. But we can push back against that without simply rejecting wholesale good public health measures because they might become the thin end of a wedge.

I've said a number of times on this thread that I don't oppose the vaccine or masks or lockdowns or social distancing. I do oppose forcing people to inject things into their body they don't want there, and I do oppose making a two-tier society via a passport. That is a perfectly reasonable line in the sand.

Just out of interest, where would your own line be drawn? What would you view as going to far in fighting this virus?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

how about smallpox vaccinations?

Massively more dangerous than Covid-19

 

[cupid_stunt]

No it hasn't. I have never been forced to install an app on my phone that tracks me an acts as a permit on where I can go in my own country. Let alone one that is being designed so as to be interoperable with simillar apps all across Europe, and that will be linked to almost every aspect of my life, and all the data that is generated. Becuase that is the next stage.

No one is being forced to install any apps, you can get a paper copy of your vaccine passport, if required.

The vaccine passport is on the NHS app, which doesn't track you.

Even the NHS Covid-19 app, doesn't actually track you, for example, at home or in a public space.

 

[NoXion]

I believe the point being made there is that any digital vaccine passport would effectively mean that you would need to install an app in order to go about normal daily life. So not forced and not yet, but ... pretty close.

Well that all depends on whether or not it's compulsory for all businesses to implement. The current government has been loathe to act, so I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[magneze]

Why? If you own a smartphone then an authoritarian government can know exactly where you are. They don't need another app. There other methods I mentioned could be used too.

No, you said "just one more method of tracking isn't going to make much difference". The ongoing debate about digital privacy is happening for a reason, because what's happening right now is not ok. Just because you don't care (but you really should), doesn't mean others also should not care.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Well when you include outright falsehoods that's no surprise. You're not being forced to install any apps.

What do you think of what they are trialling in Australia? Do you not see it as likely that this will be rolled out elsewhere if successful?

Intrastate travel within Australia is also severely restricted. And the government of South Australia, one of the country’s six states, developed and is now testing an app as Orwellian as any in the free world to enforce its quarantine rules. Returning travelers quarantining at home will be forced to download an app that combines facial recognition and geolocation. The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person. “We don’t tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes,” Premier Steven Marshall explained. “I think every South Australian should feel pretty proud that we are the national pilot for the home-based quarantine app.”

 

[Storm Fox]

No, you said "just one more method of tracking isn't going to make much difference". The ongoing debate about digital privacy is happening for a reason, because what's happening right now is not ok. Just because you don't care (but you really should), doesn't mean others also should not care.

Do you own a smartphone. Bin it
Why are you on the internet? They are tracking you now.
Yes there should be a debate on the and it should be curtailed. But installing one more app isn't going to make any difference to the current level of surveillance, but can make a big difference to public health.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No one is being forced to install any apps, you can get a paper copy of your vaccine passport, if required.

The vaccine passport is on the NHS app, which doesn't track you.

Even the NHS Covid-19 app, doesn't actually track you, for example, at home or in a public space.

See my previous previous post to NoXion

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Do you own a smartphone. Bin it
Why are you on the internet? They are tracking you now.
Yes there should be a debate on the and it should be curtailed. But installing one more app isn't going to make any difference to the current level of surveillance, but can make a big difference to public health.

Salami tactics is how it happens. One tiny slice of your liberty taken away at a time until it's too late to stop.

 

[LDC]

Also nobody is 'being forced' to have a vaccine here, and general mandatory vaccination is not at all on the cards in the UK. I work in the NHS, and if I didn't want to be vaccinated I could leave my job, which I admit is a shit position or choice to be in for some people and the line between forced/not forced is grey there, but I do think some of the language being used smacks of people being tied down and injected against their will.

And lots of people on here are against mandatory vaccination for NHS and care staff (personally I'm reluctantly for that), and plenty of us have argued against vaccine passports as well, but again I think some of the language being used is a bit bonkers around this, and is hard to untangle from the 5G tracking nanobots stuff that sounds very similar so is going to get some harsh answers.

Not sure the 'everything already tracks you anyway' is a very useful or good line to go down either tbh.

 

[existentialist]

As this debate grinds along can someone come up with better working analogies than helmets, seatbelts and now firedoors

Tell you what. If you don't think those are good analogies, a) tell us why, and b) come up with something you think is more appropriate. Otherwise we're just playing Ideas Whack-a-mole

 

[StoneRoad]

how about smallpox vaccinations?

Well, back when I was a child, I had a mandated smallpox vaccination ...
... which is part of the reason why & how Smallpox was eradicated, worldwide.

 

[existentialist]

Too many people are quoting me to be able to respond, so I will leave it at that for now.

That should tell you something. Even though it is, perhaps, very convenient from your point of view...

 

[NoXion]

What do you think of what they are trialling in Australia? Do you not see it as likely that this will be rolled out elsewhere if successful?

Even if it is successful (no guarantees on that I feel), that honestly sounds way above the competency level of this country's administration. Who the hell is going to run that kind of thing over here? Do you not remember the utter shambles that was our test and trace program?

 

[existentialist]

I've said a number of times on this thread that I don't oppose the vaccine or masks or lockdowns or social distancing. I do oppose forcing people to inject things into their body they don't want there, and I do oppose making a two-tier society via a passport. That is a perfectly reasonable line in the sand.

Just out of interest, where would your own line be drawn? What would you view as going to far in fighting this virus?

Each of those, individually, might be a "perfectly reasonable" line in the sand. But when you stand against both some form of mandatory vaccination, AND some form of mandatory control to ensure infected people don't spread it widely, it crosses that line of reasonableness. I think you might be making the mistake of seeing this as a series of binary choices.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Also nobody is 'being forced' to have a vaccine here, and general mandatory vaccination is not at all on the cards in the UK. I work in the NHS, and if I didn't want to be vaccinated I could leave my job, which I admit is a shit position or choice to be in for some people and the line between forced/not forced is grey there, but I do think some of the language being used smacks of people being tied down and injected against their will.

And lots of people on here are against mandatory vaccination for NHS and care staff (personally I'm reluctantly for that), and plenty of us have argued against vaccine passports as well, but again I think some of the language being used is a bit bonkers around this, and is hard to untangle from the 5G tracking nanobots stuff that sounds very similar so is going to get some harsh answers.

Not sure the 'everything already tracks you anyway' is a very useful or good line to go down either tbh.

Austria isn't that far away though, and we are not so different from them. The rest of the post I have a degree sympathy with. It can be difficult to disentangle the loons from genuine concerns because even a loon says something true sometimes. That's how their views perpetuate.

We still need to confront the threats that do exist however, and that involves conversation that may be speculative at times. Mockery at the mere suggestion of the potential for authoritarian abuse does not help. (I'm not accusing you of being mocking, by the way. It's a general point)

 

[existentialist]

Austria isn't that far away though, and we are not so different from them. The rest of the post I have a degree sympathy with. It can be difficult to disentangle the loons from genuine concerns because even a loon says something true sometimes. That's how their views perpetuate.

We still need to confront the threats that do exist however, and that involves conversation that may be speculative at times. Mockery at the mere suggestion of the potential for authoritarian abuse does not help. (I'm not accusing you of being mocking, by the way. It's a general point)

It's also a straw man.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

That should tell you something. Even though it is, perhaps, very convenient from your point of view...

It tells me my view is a contentious one on this corner of the internet. Nothing more, nothing less. As it stands I don't think I have missed out on replying to any major points.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Even if it is successful (no guarantees on that I feel), that honestly sounds way above the competency level of this country's administration. Who the hell is going to run that kind of thing over here? Do you not remember the utter shambles that was our test and trace program?

This is the only ray of sunshine I see right now. The sheer incompetence of our 'leaders' might well turn out to be a saving grace. I'd rather not rely on that alone though.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

It's also a straw man.

Bringing up Austria?

 

[existentialist]

Bringing up Austria?

No, the idea that the claimed mockery of your views somehow validates them.

 

[WouldBe]

What do you think of what they are trialling in Australia? Do you not see it as likely that this will be rolled out elsewhere if successful?

Better that being forcefully quarantined.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Each of those, individually, might be a "perfectly reasonable" line in the sand. But when you stand against both some form of mandatory vaccination, AND some form of mandatory control to ensure infected people don't spread it widely, it crosses that line of reasonableness. I think you might be making the mistake of seeing this as a series of binary choices.

So both might be a line in the sand individually, but combined together they become less of a line in the sand? How does that work? Surely both together is even worse than either one on their own.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No, the idea that the claimed mockery of your views somehow validates them.

I never said that.

 

[existentialist]

So both might be a line in the sand individually, but combined together they become less of a line in the sand? How does that work? Surely both together is even worse than either one on their own.

I really don't think you're debating this in good faith. You're clearly arguing from a very fixed premise, and only interested in contemplating anything that fits your - somewhat binary - view around liberty. We're going around in circles here.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Better that being forcefully quarantined.

I would disagree. Once a quarantine/lockdown is over you are free to go about your daily life. An app such as that has the very real potential of becoming a permanent feature.

 

[stdP]

Why? If you own a smartphone then an authoritarian government can know exactly where you are. They don't need another app. There other methods I mentioned could be used too.

Being able to use cell site analysis to say that Storm Fox takes the 08:15 in to Waterloo isn't quite the same thing as knowing the names, addresses and psychological profile of everyone you converse with. But from your previous posts you seem to think that because it's theoretically possible for this to happen already with a fair bit of work, then there's a) no point fighting against further encroachment and b) you have no problem making it mandatory for everybody. Just because you've given up doesn't mean privacy isn't a cause worth caring about.

With a bit of technical know-how and effort it's relatively trivial to stop most drive-by tracking attempts. De-googling a smartphone is more technically involved but also possible for those who care about it.

FWIW I got a (paper-based) vaccine passport when it looked like I might need it to visit Wales but I've not used it yet. I've not yet considered doing any other activity that might require it. I can support it as a temporary measure, but I also worry about the infrastructure being put in place for "if you don't show me your medical history you're not coming in".

A lot of this argument misses the forest for the trees IMHO though. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see why having the vaccine gives anyone special rights to do anything. Whilst vaccines significantly reduce virus transmission as far as anyone can tell, they're not 100% proof against it, so I think this attitude of "vaccinated == completely safe" is a very dangerous one - to me it's an incentivisation technique that's got out of hand. If you want to be doing realistic tracking of people carrying the virus, vaccinated or not, then you need to be doing regular testing still. Similar faulty logic was involved with the "bluetooth proximity testing == you've got plague" as people tried to do pandemic measures on the cheap.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I really don't think you're debating this in good faith. You're clearly arguing from a very fixed premise, and only interested in contemplating anything that fits your - somewhat binary - view around liberty. We're going around in circles here.

I'm arguing in complete good faith. It's possible we are talking past each other though, so maybe we should just pick up the conversation another time.