Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[ItWillNeverWork]

They can already track your mobile phone, without any app installed.

I don't have a smartphone.

 

[nogojones]

If a private venue wants to implement those policies then that is up to them. I am opposed to government mandates and vaccine passports. That's been my position all along.

Maybe we should let venues make the choice about fire safety as well? Mandating fire doors does seem a little tyrannical.

 

[Storm Fox]

They can already track your mobile phone, without any app installed.

And your car

If I have had the vaccine myself, why would I care that you haven't?

Because people who don't get vaccinated for no good reason increase the chances of the virus mutating that the either evades the vaccine or is more effective at killing people, or both.
It's really not that difficult to understand.

 

[NoXion]

This is a more complex question of course, and there are no easy answers. Some points to make that though are that the number of people in this situation is fairly low, and that they are also at risk from other people who are vaccinated, as the vaccine does not prevent you from either getting the virus or passing it on (although it does of course reduce the risk of infection and hospitalisation). The question then is how we weight one risk against another.

Is the risk to society of changing the relationship between state and individual greater than the risk of allowing people to make their own vaccine decisions? I would argue that if we put in place a precedent where the state is able to override your bodily-autonomy then this opens the door for all sorts of horrific policies in the century to come.

What change in the relationship between state and individual? Vaccine mandates happened all the way back in the days of George Washington. That particular horse has not only bolted, but died of old age in a field somewhere.

Is the risk of the virus greater than the risk of putting in place technological infrastructure (tracking apps, etc) that could, if the wrong people get in charge, make an authoritarian, survelilance state a real possibility?

That infrastructure has already existed, since before the pandemic.

If I have had the vaccine myself, why would I care that you haven't?

A vaccine passport system would allow businesses to make more informed decisions about protecting their customers. You're so laser-focused on the individual picture that you're failing to consider the real reasons why such things are being talked about. Lockdowns have done a massive number on a wide swathe of businesses, and it only makes sense that they would want to take precautions that could help to avoid another lockdown.

 

[nogojones]

If I have had the vaccine myself, why would I care that you haven't?

Because the vacciene isn't 100% protection, its just one, but a very important, control measure. Also not everyone can have the vaccine. should we just say " fuck those people"?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

i think a virus, identified by all the top scientific institutions in the world and the measures put in place will somehow not lead to us having to gouge eyeballs out or remove limbs in "horrific policies in teh century to come."

your position is an extremist one.

Ok, fine well if the state now how authority over what you do with your body, would you support limits on the number of children a person can have? Climate change is after all an existential threat, so we should probably ensure people need a licence to have children. Would you be be opposed to that?

 

[existentialist]

This is a more complex question of course, and there are no easy answers.

There are some easier answers, though. Like not relying on the vaccine as our sole means of protection from the virus.

Eg, mask wearing (very little cost to anyone, significant benefits in reduction of transmission).

Eg, restricting (ideally, self-restricting) unnecessary movement, contact with other people, etc. A modest price to pay, but very big dividends - look how transmission rates dropped after the first lockdown.

Eg, effectively controlling inflows from abroad, in a way we simply haven't done, but which has worked effectively for other countries.

Eg, by making it possible for people to self-isolate if they are symptomatic, rather than encouraging presenteeism via an appallingly low rate of SSP, and a benefits system calculatedly designed to make it impossible to claim, particularly for an immediate 10-14 day isolation.

Some points to make that though are that the number of people in this situation is fairly low, and that they are also at risk from other people who are vaccinated, as the vaccine does not prevent you from either getting the virus or passing it on (although it does of course reduce the risk of infection and hospitalisation). The question then is how we weight one risk against another.

Is the risk to society of changing the relationship between state and individual greater than the risk of allowing people to make their own vaccine decisions? I would argue that if we put in place a precedent where the state is able to override your bodily-autonomy then this opens the door for all sorts of horrific policies in the century to come.

Is the risk of the virus greater than the risk of putting in place technological infrastructure (tracking apps, etc) that could, if the wrong people get in charge, make an authoritarian, survelilance state a real possibility?

How do we weigh these risks? I honstly don't know, but I haven't heard anyone even attempt to.

Right now, I'm less worried about an authoritarian surveillance state than one in which vulnerable people are just expected to suck it up and die, or become unwell for a long time.

 

[Storm Fox]

I don't have a smartphone.

Do you have a mobile? They can triangulate your position from the Cell Towers it uses.
Do you have a car. You are tracked via ANPR.
In cities they can track with cameras.
Using the internet, they can track your IP Address
Your Internet Browser it will track you.
Windows tracks you.
Any social media will track you.
All these could be used by an authoritarian govt in the future

So unless you sit all do in a cupboard in the middle of nowhere you are going to be tracked.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Ok, fine well if the state now how authority over what you do with your body, would you support limits on the number of children a person can have? Climate change is after all an existential threat, so we should probably ensure people need a licence to have children. Would you be be opposed to that?

You are getting even more bonkers now.

 

[existentialist]

And your car

Because people who don't get vaccinated for no good reason increase the chances of the virus mutating that the either evades the vaccine or is more effective at killing people, or both.
It's really not that difficult to understand.

It is very difficult to understand if one is coming at it from a purely individualistic perspective

 

[magneze]

I don't really see the issue with having some concerns about creeping authoritarianism and surveillance as a result of the measures which are understandably put in place as part of a pandemic.

 

[Chilli.s]

I wanna be tracked, in case I wonder off and get lost, then someone might come and rescue me

 

[magneze]

Do you have a mobile? They can triangulate you position from the Cell Towers it uses.
Do you have a car. You a tracked via ANPR.
In cities they can track with cameras.
Using the internet, they can track your IP Address
Your Internet Browser it will track you.
Windows tracks you.
Any social media will track you.
All these could be used by an authoritarian govt in the future

So unless you sit all do in a cupboard in the middle of nowhere you are going to be tracked.

That isn't a good justification for anything.

 

[BigMoaner]

Do you have a mobile? They can triangulate you position from the Cell Towers it uses.
Do you have a car. You a tracked via ANPR.
In cities they can track with cameras.
Using the internet, they can track your IP Address
You Internet Browser it will track you.
Windows tracks you.
Any social media will track you.
All these could be used by an authoritarian govt in the future

So unless you sit all do in a cupboard in the middle of nowhere you are going to be tracked.

and how about all the ways the arseholes need proof of address? like registering to vote, or hte doctors, or for tax reasons.

but yeah some shitty app to try and prevent people ending up on ventilators is the most of our worries.

proper thicko stuff really.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

And your car

Because people who don't get vaccinated for no good reason increase the chances of the virus mutating that the either evades the vaccine or is more effective at killing people, or both.
It's really not that difficult to understand.

Unless you eradicate the virus altogether you will never stop it mutating. And besides, viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous but more transmissable, so mutation is not actually a bad thing in the long run. Eventually we will have to learn to live with a less dangerous variant as the dominant strain, as we do with the flu.

 

[existentialist]

Do you have a mobile? They can triangulate your position from the Cell Towers it uses.
Do you have a car. You are tracked via ANPR.
In cities they can track with cameras.
Using the internet, they can track your IP Address
Your Internet Browser it will track you.
Windows tracks you.
Any social media will track you.
All these could be used by an authoritarian govt in the future

So unless you sit all do in a cupboard in the middle of nowhere you are going to be tracked.

But the real point here is that ItWillNeverWork seems to be predicating EVERYTHING on THEIR particular lifestyle choices.

 

[Storm Fox]

That isn't a good justification for anything.

You are thoroughly tracked already, so one more method of tracking isn't going to make much difference.

 

[BigMoaner]

Unless you eradicate the virus altogether you will never stop it mutating. And besides, viruses tend to mutate in ways that make them less dangerous but more transmissable, so mutation is not actually a bad thing in the long run. Eventually we will have to learn to live with a less dangerous variant as the dominant strain, as we do with the flu.

#science.

 

[existentialist]

I don't really see the issue with having some concerns about creeping authoritarianism and surveillance as a result of the measures which are understandably put in place as part of a pandemic.

Neither do I. We need to be watchful. But that doesn't mean resisting everything on that one principle. A balance has to be struck. And yes, it is quite possible that governments may try to abuse the situation to their advantage. But we can push back against that without simply rejecting wholesale good public health measures because they might become the thin end of a wedge.

 

[BigMoaner]

i dunno, it's hard to debate this stuff when it "could lead to communist china"

 

[two sheds]

On proper ventilation? I have no problem with that.

No: "Private companies not taking simple precautions against the spread of coronavirus will effectively be injecting the virus in people who visit. We do know the long term effects of that, some of which are death."

You'd have been against mandatory smallpox vaccination, too then. Wasn't that just a one hundred and fifty year slippery path to where we've got now. They didn't know what be the harmful results of injecting that vaccine into little kiddies either, and the answer was ... none at all.

Smallpox and the story of vaccination | Science Museum

Edward Jenner's successful smallpox vaccination led to the global eradication of smallpox and the development of many more life-saving vaccines.

www.sciencemuseum.org.uk

 

[IC3D]

As this debate grinds along can someone come up with better working analogies than helmets, seatbelts and now firedoors

 

[BigMoaner]

As this debate grinds along can someone come up with better working analogies than helmets, seatbelts and now firedoors

ah the slipping in of "debate"

 

[two sheds]

As this debate grinds along can someone come up with better working analogies than helmets, seatbelts and now firedoors

how about smallpox vaccinations?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

What change in the relationship between state and individual? Vaccine mandates happened all the way back in the days of George Washington. That particular horse has not only bolted, but died of old age in a field somewhere.

In the UK the last time the government tried to mandate vaccines was in the 1850s, and the law was changed soon after because people objected so much. We have progressed a lot since the 1850s and I don't think it is particularly great to go backwards.

That infrastructure has already existed, since before the pandemic.

No it hasn't. I have never been forced to install an app on my phone that tracks me an acts as a permit on where I can go in my own country. Let alone one that is being designed so as to be interoperable with simillar apps all across Europe, and that will be linked to almost every aspect of my life, and all the data that is generated. Becuase that is the next stage.

A vaccine passport system would allow businesses to make more informed decisions about protecting their customers. You're so laser-focused on the individual picture that you're failing to consider the real reasons why such things are being talked about. Lockdowns have done a massive number on a wide swathe of businesses, and it only makes sense that they would want to take precautions that could help to avoid another lockdown.

Yes, lockdowns were an aweful necessity at the time. But now we have vaccines for people to take, we should focus on convincing people to take them voluntarily. Once a high enough percentage of the population have been either vaccinated or acquired natural immunity from getting the virus, we should open up as usual, as we have done. There is absolutely no need for these passports.

 

[magneze]

Neither do I. We need to be watchful. But that doesn't mean resisting everything on that one principle. A balance has to be struck. And yes, it is quite possible that governments may try to abuse the situation to their advantage. But we can push back against that without simply rejecting wholesale good public health measures because they might become the thin end of a wedge.

Absolutely but there's a debate to be had (perhaps not on this thread) about where that balance is. This thread might be better: Do you support an Austria-style lockdown of those not fully vaccinated against Covid-19?

You are thoroughly tracked already, so one more method of tracking isn't going to make much difference.

This is just silly. Sorry.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Too many people are quoting me to be able to respond, so I will leave it at that for now.

 

[IC3D]

how about smallpox vaccinations?

Again, what about it?

 

[NoXion]

Well when you include outright falsehoods that's no surprise. You're not being forced to install any apps.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

You are getting even more bonkers now.

Why? The rationale is the same. An existential threat that could be ameliorated if we cede some of our freedoms. Give me one good reason to not put on place population control that could not also be used to argue against forced vaccines.