Discussion: UK anti-vaxx 'freedom' morons, protests and QAnon idiots

[cupid_stunt]

What do you think of what they are trialling in Australia? Do you not see it as likely that this will be rolled out elsewhere if successful?

No, not by the UK government, which doesn't mandate the use of vaccine passports in England, never mandated the NHS Covid-19 app to be installed, and has never mandated ID cards. Even the Coronavirus Act is time limited, and subject to parliamentary renewal every six months.

You are just making giant leaps into paranoia.

 

[LDC]

What I find annoying with this control/State surveillance etc fixation that's really common among some parts of the left (especially the sub-cultural bits), and is a big feature of the anti-vaccine/conspiracy theory crowd is its simplistic assumption that the State and governments are just itching to track and control everyone with this stuff.

Which when you look at it is patently not at all that simple. Here there's a really strong ideological commitment to 'individual freedom' (especially in the Tory party) and largely the government is strongly resisting any of these mandates etc. and has done (or at least parts of the State and establishment have) historically with things like identity cards as well.

I think it's also fair to say that the resistance to the tracking/mandate/compulsion kinda stuff is one of the things that's been constant from the UK government all the way through this pandemic, and that position is partly why there have been so many deaths here. So when someone goes on about how they're gagging to monitor us it comes across as slightly wrong footed and a little bit comedic sometimes.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No, not by the UK government, which doesn't mandate the use of vaccine passports in England, never mandated the NHS Covid-19 app to be installed, and has never mandated ID cards. Even the Coronavirus Act is time limited, and subject to parliamentary renewal every six months.

You are just making giant leaps into paranoia.

So because something hasn't happened yet that means it won't happen in the future? Australia and Austria and any number of other liberal democracies are doing these things. What makes us so different?

 

[NoXion]

What I find annoying with this control/State surveillance etc fixation that's really common among some parts of the left (especially the sub-cultural bits), and is a big feature of the anti-vaccine/conspiracy theory crowd is its simplistic assumption that the State and governments are just itching to track and control everyone with this stuff.

Which when you look at it is patently not at all that simple. Here there's a really strong ideological commitment to 'individual freedom' (especially in the Tory party) which is one of the things that made the response to the pandemic so slow and resulted in so many deaths. And largely the government is strongly resisting any of these mandates etc. and has done (or at least parts of the State and establishment have) historically with things like identity cards as well.

I think it's also fair to say that the resistance to the tracking/mandate/compulsion kinda stuff is one of the things that's been constant from the UK government all the way through this pandemic, and that position is partly why there have been so many deaths here. So when someone goes on about how they're gagging to monitor us it comes across as slightly wrong footed and a little bit comedic sometimes.

I wonder how the New Labour government would have reacted. They certainly were really big on ID cards.

 

[cupid_stunt]

So because something hasn't happened yet that means it won't happen in the future? Australia and Austria and any number of other liberal democracies are doing these things. What makes us so different?

See LynnDoyleCooper's post just above yours.

And, get a grip.

 

[StoneRoad]

I would disagree. Once a quarantine/lockdown is over you are free to go about your daily life. An app such as that has the very real potential of becoming a permanent feature.

I would think we will soon find that such an app can be by-passed by some clever coding or even deleted.

 

[gentlegreen]

This discussion made me search back-issues of U75 fro "baked bean can RFID" - which I vaguely remembered being a "thing" in the Jazzz days - gawd noze what he'd be like now in the days of 5G and COVID - poor mad old sod ...

 

[BigMoaner]

So because something hasn't happened yet that means it won't happen in the future? Australia and Austria and any number of other liberal democracies are doing these things. What makes us so different?

it's probably because tehy are trying to deal with a global pandemic.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

it's probably because tehy are trying to deal with a global pandemic.

We all are. The question is what makes Austria and Australia so different from us in the UK that would prevent us from going down the route they have gone down?

 

[BigMoaner]

We all are. The question is what makes Austria and Australia so different from us in the UK that would prevent us from going down the route they have gone down?

i have no idea but i think the end game being "horrific crimes against the person in the next century" and "slice by slice to China" is luancy. sorry.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

What I find annoying with this control/State surveillance etc fixation that's really common among some parts of the left (especially the sub-cultural bits), and is a big feature of the anti-vaccine/conspiracy theory crowd is its simplistic assumption that the State and governments are just itching to track and control everyone with this stuff.

Which when you look at it is patently not at all that simple. Here there's a really strong ideological commitment to 'individual freedom' (especially in the Tory party) and largely the government is strongly resisting any of these mandates etc. and has done (or at least parts of the State and establishment have) historically with things like identity cards as well.

I think it's also fair to say that the resistance to the tracking/mandate/compulsion kinda stuff is one of the things that's been constant from the UK government all the way through this pandemic, and that position is partly why there have been so many deaths here. So when someone goes on about how they're gagging to monitor us it comes across as slightly wrong footed and a little bit comedic sometimes.

See LynnDoyleCooper's post just above yours.

I take your point, but I personally am not convinced that this government (or any other for that matter) have a principled bone in their body. Relying on the principled, ideological convictions of Boris Johnson seems to me somewhat misguided.

I'm making a slight strawman of your argument, I admit, but the underlying point more broadly is that I see no reason in practice why this country would not do exactly the same as other countries that are for all intents and purposes the same as us. Are we that different from Austalia or Austria? If so why? Is it really just that the Torys are in power?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

i have no idea but i think the end game being "horrific crimes against the person in the next century" and "slice by slice to China" is luancy. sorry.

You're dodging the question. The point cupid_stunt made was that no vaccine mandates or tracking apps were being implemented here yet, even if they are in Austria and Australia. My question is simple. What makes us so different to them?

You responding with "it's probably because tehy are trying to deal with a global pandemic." fails to answer or even address the question.

 

[LDC]

I take your point, but I personally am not convinced that this government (or any other for that matter) have a principled bone in their body. Relying on the principled, ideological convictions of Boris Johnson seems to me somewhat misguided.

I'm making a slight strawman of your argument, I admit, but the underlying point more broadly is that I see no reason in practice why this country would not do exactly the same as other countries that are for all intents and purposes the same as us. Are we that different from Austalia or Austria? If so why? Is it really just that the Torys are in power?

Johnson is highly ideological; to free market capitalism, that is not going to change.

Two bits to the other stuff; could it happen here, and if it did is it such a massive deal as some make out?
Briefly I think yes it could, and then no, if it did it wouldn't be such a big deal as some make out. Maybe that second bit is where we differ more.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I would think we will soon find that such an app can be by-passed by some clever coding or even deleted.

No doubt that's true even with China's social credit system. But there would always be legal consequences for getting caught. And I'd rather not have to break the law.

 

[krtek a houby]

Do you have a mobile? They can triangulate your position from the Cell Towers it uses.
Do you have a car. You are tracked via ANPR.
In cities they can track with cameras.
Using the internet, they can track your IP Address
Your Internet Browser it will track you.
Windows tracks you.
Any social media will track you.
All these could be used by an authoritarian govt in the future

So unless you sit all do in a cupboard in the middle of nowhere you are going to be tracked.

cupboard 75

 

[gentlegreen]

cupboard 75

prepper75

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Johnson is highly ideological; to free market capitalism, that is not going to change.

I would nuance that slightly and say that his allegiance is to Capital rather than simply free market capitalism. Capital is able to survive, and even thrive, under conditions that are far from either free or liberal. I've heard it said that Fascism is precisely the preservation of Capital's interests in the absense of a free market and liberal order.

I'm not sure what to think of that, but it makes sense as those with money and power at the top are only interested in free markets so long as they are rigged to their own advantage. If the conditions change then the ideology of free markets will be thrown aside in a second. If not by this government then some other.

Two bits to the other stuff; could it happen here, and if it did is it such a massive deal as some make out?
Briefly I think yes it could, and then no, if it did it wouldn't be such a big deal as some make out. Maybe that second bit is where we differ more.

This is definitely where we differ. I believe it is far beyond what is either a necessary or acceptible reaction to the pandemic. The risks outweigh the potential benefits.

 

[existentialist]

This is probably (IMO) the least helpful aspect of this forum, once the crowd have labelled a User then even when they make a valid point that would be quite ok from one of their mates the usual clever dicks pile in with smart put downs, its very school playground

Oh, and BTW, almost every new poster who turns up on here, and then in short order starts kvetching about what a horrible place it is, turns out to be a banned returner, who has taken considerable trouble to sign up again under a new ID and build up some kind of posting history, before starting off on the same tired old rant.

I say this only because, if you are not that particular poster, you'll probably want not to be misidentified as them. HTH. HAND

 

[WouldBe]

I would disagree. Once a quarantine/lockdown is over you are free to go about your daily life. An app such as that has the very real potential of becoming a permanent feature.

What purpose would it serve?

Do you also reject tagging of people on remand?

 

[LDC]

This is definitely where we differ. I believe it is far beyond what is either a necessary or acceptible reaction to the pandemic. The risks outweigh the potential benefits.

Weighing up possible and completely speculative risks to 'freedom' in the future etc against unknown numbers of potential deaths on top of the 150,000+ we've had now (some, or even many, of which would have been avoidable with stricter measures earlier) is not an easy calculation to make, and surprised you seem so absolutely sure none of those measures to limit even more death and illness are worth it. It's also hard not to wonder how much of your position is about individual feelings and concerns about your 'liberty' to do what you want to do without those measures.

 

[WouldBe]

Being able to use cell site analysis to say that Storm Fox takes the 08:15 in to Waterloo isn't quite the same thing as knowing the names, addresses and psychological profile of everyone you converse with. But from your previous posts you seem to think that because it's theoretically possible for this to happen already with a fair bit of work,

Cell phone triangulation is quite easy and has been around since at least the '90's.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Oh, and BTW, almost every new poster who turns up on here, and then in short order starts kvetching about what a horrible place it is, turns out to be a banned returner, who has taken considerable trouble to sign up again under a new ID and build up some kind of posting history, before starting off on the same tired old rant.

I say this only because, if you are not that particular poster, you'll probably want not to be misidentified as them. HTH. HAND

Well I've been here 20 years no bans.

 

[LDC]

I'm also a bit confused by what you think is OK to do to protect public health.

 

[elbows]

To thoroughly test attitudes towards vaccine passports, more time should probably be spent on the idea that such policies were often touted as an alternative to having to close those venues completely during especially nasty pandemic periods.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

What purpose would it serve?

Do you also reject tagging of people on remand?

What pupose would it serve to extend the usage of the app? Because power is irresistable to many, and such a system gives people power.

As for tagging, I think there is a difference between how we should treat criminals and how we should treat innocent people in the course of their everyday life.

 

[two sheds]

Aha!! So we just need to make it a criminal offence not to have a vaccine passport and then we can tag them

 

[existentialist]

Well I've been here 20 years no bans.

Logic fail

 

[Storm Fox]

Being able to use cell site analysis to say that Storm Fox takes the 08:15 in to Waterloo isn't quite the same thing as knowing the names, addresses and psychological profile of everyone you converse with.

That's what various social media sites are for, or at least could be repurposed for.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Weighing up possible and completely speculative risks to 'freedom' in the future etc against unknown numbers of potential deaths on top of the 150,000+ we've had now (some, or even many, of which would have been avoidable with stricter measures earlier) is not an easy calculation to make, and surprised you seem so absolutely sure none of those measures to limit even more death and illness are worth it. It's also hard not to wonder how much of your position is about individual feelings and concerns about your 'liberty' to do what you want to do without those measures.

I'm also a bit confused by what you think is OK to do to protect public health.

Well as I've said, I took the vaccine early on, and I've never been opposed to masks or the lockdowns. So, these are things that I see as acceptable responses to a very unique situation.

But governments are known for using emergencies to gather new powers, and those powers are rarely ceded after they are taken. You just have to look at how the so-called war on terror was used as an excuse by governments all over the world to pass legislation eroding rights and increasing surveillance of their citizens. That's why I draw the line in the sand where I do.

 

[LDC]

Well as I've said, I took the vaccine early on, and I've never been opposed to masks or the lockdowns. So, these are things that I see as acceptable responses to a very unique situation.

But governments are known for using emergencies to gather new powers, and those powers are rarely ceded after they are taken. You just have to look at how the so-called war on terror was used as an excuse by governments all over the world to pass legislation eroding rights and increasing surveillance of their citizens. That's why I draw the line in the sand where I do.

So not actual restrictions to freedom in the present like lockdowns and quarantine, but technological fixes that might enable future State control like apps and vaccine passports?