Discussion about UK politics forum

[the B]

A market economy is one that uses a market to produce and distribute good(s). I just did that - right or wrong?

 

[silentNate]

Non-capitalist markets do exist...
Far more interesting debate elsehere

From a Marxist perspective, "class society" and "capitalist class society" are not synonymous terms. CAPITALIST class society is a particular, historically specific, weird-o kind of class society. Feudalism was
another, different, kind of class society, for example.

Market exchange has a particular, peculiar character in capitalist class
societies. In capitalism, exchange is not simply a matter of the
distribution of goods. Rather, in capitalism, exchange is a necessary
condition for the realization of surplus value, which is extracted at the
point of production.

The unique character of capitalist "markets" is thus connected to the REALLY
unique feature of capitalist class societies, which is their production
relations. [This - while I'm at it - is one reason why it is so hard to use
the same term, "market," in relation to capitalist and non-capitalist class
societies alike -- let alone in relation to a potential NON-CLASS society.]

So I do think that someone could advance what we're calling "....
position" while still recognizing the presence of non-capitalist markets in
non-capitalist CLASS societies. The question would still be whether there
is something about market-exchange per se that is at odds with a fully
socialized mode of production.

 

[ernestolynch]

Non-capitalist markets do exist...
Far more interesting debate elsehere

Shut door on your way out then kid

 

[butchersapron]

Where - where's production - you just said in in the classic manner and asssumed these given conditions and off we go. What a joke! These conditions have never been filled. This is really old stuff.

Market bollocks sunshine

 

[flimsier]

He doesn't understand the shit he talks about thats his prob - and he doesn't like it when he comes across people that do. Petulant insecurity.

You 'did' a hypothetical. If we all did that to close debate, there'd be little debate.

As you know, your example was bollocks.

 

[nosos]

The question would still be whether there
is something about market-exchange per se that is at odds with a fully
socialized mode of production.

The B? This is the crux of it.

 

[flimsier]

Sorry, aimed at the b. not BA!

 

[the B]

Production is the combination of capital and labour, I handed over a piece of paper that was slightly cut with scissors.

 

[ernestolynch]

Listen kid, just because you went to a very expensive school, which leached off of us, doesn't make you cleverer than us.

 

[the B]

The B? This is the crux of it.

So an exchange can only be capitalist or socialist in nature? I'd disagree.

I can see where you are coming from though.

 

[flimsier]

Can we delete this thread as an ad for P&P?

Or leave it here as a warning?

I have no problem with P&P being more robust than other forums, but I think there needs to be some guidelines that threads should attempt to deal with issues, rather than parties (except sometimes, one thread for one party is appropriate, but one)

Threads clearly aimed at winding up parties should be binned.

One moderator would be appropriate... I'll do it!

 

[the B]

Listen kid, just because you went to a very expensive school, which leached off of us, doesn't make you cleverer than us.

Didn't think I was, please stop making assumptions about me Ernie, you don't know that much about me.

 

[ernestolynch]

Can we delete this thread as an ad for P&P?

Or leave it here as a warning?

I have no problem with P&P being more robust than other forums, but I think there needs to be some guidelines that threads should attempt to deal with issues, rather than parties (except sometimes, one thread for one party is appropriate, but one)

Threads clearly aimed at winding up parties should be binned.

One moderator would be appropriate... I'll do it!

Fuck off. You flounced very publically from it all, sulked more like. You are constantly calling for threads to be binned, typical Trostky School of Falsification stuff.

You a moderator? Making all the WESPEC' threads smell nice?

 

[the B]

Can we delete this thread as an ad for P&P?

Or leave it here as a warning?

I have no problem with P&P being more robust than other forums, but I think there needs to be some guidelines that threads should attempt to deal with issues, rather than parties (except sometimes, one thread for one party is appropriate, but one)

Threads clearly aimed at winding up parties should be binned.

One moderator would be appropriate... I'll do it!

This thread represents something about P&P though, it's the dominant posters posting in what is sometimes their 'usual' mode - a load of ad hominum attacks on a derailed thread that is no longer discussing the original issue. I don't think it represents P&P at it's best but there is enough of it to make a lot of people I've met from the boards (somewhere in the region of 100 to 200) avoid P&P.

It has nothing to do with the moderators or the forum structure I don't think - just the people who seem to post there the most...

 

[flimsier]

So an exchange can only be capitalist or socialist in nature? I'd disagree.

I can see where you are coming from though.

Can you expand? Do you think this? Are you suggesting other posters do?

I'm sorry to state that you are being found out. Maybe after Cambridge you'll be able to deal with the arguments on here, but at the moment you remind me of when you sent me a detailed argument for how the middle meant the median (duh!) thinking I was in the dark about that (and without reading the thread which meant that was nothing like what I was asking).

 

[silentNate]

Can we delete this thread as an ad for P&P?

Or leave it here as a warning?

I have no problem with P&P being more robust than other forums, but I think there needs to be some guidelines that threads should attempt to deal with issues, rather than parties (except sometimes, one thread for one party is appropriate, but one)

Threads clearly aimed at winding up parties should be binned.

One moderator would be appropriate... I'll do it!

Nope- thread should stay as a warning, coz there are people that don't know just how bad the level of debate/abuse in UKp+p is and might accidently go there
I'm just hoping people get bored of the anti-SWP shit and start proper debates

 

[the B]

Fuck off. You flounced very publically from it all, sulked more like. You are constantly calling for threads to be binned, typical Trostky School of Falsification stuff.

You a moderator? Making all the WESPEC' threads smell nice?

You can fuck off too. Someone can call for any thread they like to be binned.

 

[ernestolynch]

You can fuck off too. Someone can call for any thread they like to be binned.

Especially the anime bollix.

 

[flimsier]

Fuck off. You flounced very publically from it all, sulked more like. You are constantly calling for threads to be binned, typical Trostky School of Falsification stuff.

You a moderator? Making all the WESPEC' threads smell nice?

I plead not guilty to the 'threads being binned' accusation though guilty of the shit threads, obviously - like ' how do we bring down the RESPECT website!?'

I do not believe I would make RESPECT threads smell nice.

I plead very guilty of flouncing, for good reason, as I see it.

I've no doubt I'd never be considered good enough to be a moderator, though I'd be offended if people in P&P really thought I'd be a biased moderator without very strict principles that I uphold.



So, job's mine, yes?

 

[ernestolynch]

I'd sooner give it to Wabbit

 

[flimsier]

You can fuck off too. Someone can call for any thread they like to be binned.

See, I've called th B a twat twice tonight and he still votes for me!!

( (c) RESPECT argument about what 'vote' actually means)

 

[butchersapron]

This thread has noting to do with anti_swpism - the party has hardly been mentioned - the reliance of certain posters on that image helps it though - it's been about personal stuff. Fine let's do it, but let's not lie about what it concerns.

Anything else is dishonest.

 

[flimsier]

I'd sooner give it to Wabbit

That's 2, because everyone knows your posts are the opposite of what you mean (I'm actually disappointed that you didn't promise to saws any limbs off!)

Anyone want to start a poll in UKP about flimsier being a mod to sort it out?

 

[TeeJay]

If a poster lies about this experience = get a new posting identity, credibility dissolved.

Who are you talking about?

 

[ernestolynch]

look at the power hungry trot

 

[nosos]

Who are you talking about?

You presumably.

 

[flimsier]

This thread has noting to do with anti_swpism - the party has hardly been mentioned - the reliance of certain posters on that image helps it though - it's been about personal stuff. Fine let's do it, but let's not lie about what it concerns.

Anything else is dishonest.

Needs an edit. I think I know what you mean.

 

[Epona]

I actually think flimsier would make a good moderator - he's sensible enough to remain impartial but wouldn't hesitate to bin any of the bollocks that's been going on in UKP - the sort of shit that puts me off posting there a lot of the time.

What is it with some of you people? - you are obssessed with political parties and factions, you don't seem interested in any real issues at all.

 

[the B]

Can you expand? Do you think this? Are you suggesting other posters do?

I'm sorry to state that you are being found out. Maybe after Cambridge you'll be able to deal with the arguments on here, but at the moment you remind me of when you sent me a detailed argument for how the middle meant the median (duh!) thinking I was in the dark about that (and without reading the thread which meant that was nothing like what I was asking).

The PM was just me when I was bored and being pedantic...sorry.

As for what I think is possible - but not what I would have - if a socialist production process/economy/exchange is the result of the means of production being in the hands of those who actually do the production...

...and a capitalist one where it is the hand of 'bosses' who own the capital...

A combination of both is possible...presumably neither is therefore 'capitalist' or 'socialist'.

As a side note, which I think is important, a capitalist state is more than just a free market economy - it also features a political system that supports the free market economy that allows the concentration and retaining of power among the few.

 

[flimsier]

You presumably.

Obvious to everyone else. Want to start the fight again? BA has done the work for me!

TEll you what, start it on that thread!