Discussion about UK politics forum

[nosos]

Do you think he lied on the school thread, Jezza?

 

[the B]

I don't get involved with the arguments on UK P&P about the SWP/Respect/Galloway/Trots - not sure if you are referring to me personally but it's invalid if you are...

I'm not so sure they get debated robustly because only a few people are willing to get involved with the debate...the quality of mudslinging is robust enough to keep plenty of people away from a debate on UK P&P though.

 

[nosos]

I don't get involved with the arguments on UK P&P about the SWP/Respect/Galloway/Trots - not sure if you are referring to me personally but it's invalid if you are...

So you don't even take part in them and you want to change them? Ffs, let people do their own thing.

 

[atitlan]

And when they are clipped around the ear by the milk monitor, then they should desist - what's your point?

That if you compare those threads in UK P&P to the ones in world where the mods have taken action there is no significant difference, and that infantile playground battles is exactly what they are.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the world forum was much, much worse than it currently is for this sort of thing, the mods took action and things have improved noticeably.

People actively avoid UK P&P - that is not good for the health of that forum.

At this point I'm going to leave this thread before I get sucked into the kind of slanging match I'm criticising.

 

[nosos]

That if you compare those threads in UK P&P to the ones in world where the mods have taken action there is no significant difference, and that infantile playground battles is exactly what they are.

I've posted in both for quite a long time and world politics was a lot worse imo - nothing at all actually did get discussed (which no matter how much people claim is the case on uk politics isn't true) and quite a lot of the impetus for changing it came from people within the forum.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, the world forum was much, much worse than it currently is for this sort of thing, the mods took action and things have improved noticeably.

Yep. Although it's less fun now.

eople actively avoid UK P&P - that is not good for the health of that forum.

That's true but I don't see how the kind of criticisms put forth on this thread help other than by, as oisleep said, imposing a utterly false model of what constitutes 'constructive' debate by people who don't actually take part in the interaction they're trying to eradicate.

 

[the B]

So you don't even take part in them and you want to change them? Ffs, let people do their own thing.

Maybe I don't post in them because they are just mudslinging matches rather than debates (in my opinion and probably others...)

Those threads are also irrelevent in the view of many others but also dominant UK P&P - so many people instead choose to put threads about isses that matter to them (which are arguably about UK P&P) in General.

 

[the B]

I've posted in both for quite a long time and world politics was a lot worse imo - nothing at all actually did get discussed (which no matter how much people claim is the case on uk politics isn't true) and quite a lot of the impetus for changing it came from people within the forum.

TeeJay is in UK P&P - would agree world politics was worse though...

 

[nosos]

Maybe I don't post in them because they are just mudslinging matches rather than debates (in my opinion and probably others...)

So if you don't post in them and you have no interest in ever posting them then why the fuck do you want to scrap them? It seems almost spiteful!

Those threads are also irrelevent in the view of many others

Tyrany of the majority! The American political system was designed to prevent such a travesty of justice occuring, my good sir! Did the founding fathers toil in vain!?

 

[nosos]

TeeJay is in UK P&P - would agree world politics was worse though...

World politics was much much much worse - you'd have to be pretty fucking astoundingly blinkered to say things don't get discussed in uk politics - you may have problems with what's discussed and how it's discussed but you can't argue with the reams and reams of well articulated argument which is contained within ..

 

[Streathamite]

Fuck off Neo, go and talk about Anime or some such bollix. Or how you squatted between private school and university, you diplomat's kid....

so, umm, only posters who've passed the patented ernie cred-o-meter test should be allowed to contribute to P&P, hmm?

 

[the B]

I think world politics managed to put together some good threads sometimes - usually not to do with USA, some of the ones about East Asian politics and the well known oil one are good.

I think those threads which are (my opinion - and others) shit should go or be condensed because they make the forum unattractive and keep people away from adding to debate or reading what there is. TeeJay provided stats at the beginning of this thread to indicate the level of shitty SWP/Respect/Trot or Galloway bash threads...

 

[oisleep]

so many people instead choose to put threads about isses that matter to them (which are arguably about UK P&P) in General.

Well that way everyone's happy, you can debate in general or p&p, about issues that matter to you.

If you, as you say above, have the opportunity to debate these in a forum which doesn't contain any mudslinging, why can't you leave the other forum do get on with whatever it is or not that they do?

 

[Stobart Stopper]

I just prefer reading about wanks and kittens etc.

I think there should be a new forum for Essex Girls and Boys, the time is right!

 

[nosos]

I think those threads which are (my opinion - and others) shit should go or be condensed because they make the forum unattractive and keep people away from adding to debate or reading what there is.

Why do you keep saying others? Invoking the magical mystical majority doesn't make your case any more authoritative ..

Your argument is complete shite - if you apply to the same thing to any other forum, it falls apart - think of the drugs/sports/suburban forums. You have a problem with some of the people on p&p - that's fine - you have a problem with some of the content on p&p - that's also fine - what's not fine is your desire to impose your own tastes on everyone else. No matter how much you claim you're not doing it and try and hide the fact by harping on about the silent majority agreeing with you, you are being a dictator.

A dictator in a long black coat.

TeeJay provided stats at the beginning of this thread to indicate the level of shitty SWP/Respect/Trot or Galloway bash threads...

Well ignore them! Jesus, the whole of the suburban forum bores the fuck out of me but do I go around trying to get them to talk about things I find more interesting!? Of course I don't! Grow the fuck up and let people enjoy themselves how they see fit..

 

[oisleep]

TeeJay provided stats at the beginning of this thread to indicate the level of shitty SWP/Respect/Trot or Galloway bash threads...

ahem, the stats were about SWP/Respect/Trot/Galloway, who decides it its a shitty thread or not? You? TeeJay? Who?.

Since the time i've been here, i've learned a lot about SWP/Respect that I would not have got from anywhere else which has allowed me to form a balanced opinion on them.

People like ernie have actually been in the SWP and campaigned for them, so I am interested in hearing his opinions on current developments, however bad tastefully they may be, they are relevant

 

[nosos]

ahem, the stats were about SWP/Respect/Trot/Galloway, who decides it its a shitty thread or not? You? TeeJay? Who?.

Exactly - it's arrogant wannabe dictators who see themselves as arbiters of what is good and constructive ..

 

[the B]

Well that way everyone's happy, you can debate in general or p&p, about issues that matter to you.

If you, as you say above, have the opportunity to debate these in a forum which doesn't contain any mudslinging, why can't you leave the other forum do get on with whatever it is or not that they do?

Means a lot of people don't read the good debate (which is hidden among a mass of mudslinging) in UK P&P.

I think the good debate in UK P&P (when it happens) way outstrips the "good" debate in general (which frankly could do with the input of people who are capable of good debate in UK P&P). But an artifical divide has generated because of the mudslinging in UK P&P (which is fun for them...even though it's sometimes offensive to those who you sling at and fuck off with all the grow a back bone bollocks - it's not justification for doing it to begin with, you have no right to cause people offense) and it's not benefically to the 'general' posters who tend to miss out on input from UK P&P.

I think the quality overall, especially in terms of debate, would vastly improve in UK P&P without the mudslinging, the best threads in UK P&P are the ones without it (meanoldman indicated such earlier).

If there is a parallel to be made with world politics, the best threads in there are the ones which don't have the mudslinging in them - often the ones which avoid american politics or the oil thread.

 

[Streathamite]

Why is everyone so keen on shaping the forum in a particular way
/QUOTE]
becuase it makes the forum look like some endless left-sectarian circle jerk, and deeply uninviting to potential new posters.

It is how it turns out, why can't we just leave it that way and see what happens instead of trying to construct some artificial structure of what it should be like, based on the opinions of those who complain the most

I don't think anyone's suggesting arbritrary, imposed change. What you are suggesting will happen anyway because a) the mods ain't got the time to do owt else, and because the best BBs are a kind of lightly-monitored demi-anarchy where anything - within sensible rules - goes, and the BB, for better or worse, is what its' posters make of it. However, I would regard myself as a complete left-sect anorak, and I find this forum now to be deeply tedious, and generating far more heat than light. Each forum needs to attract new 'blood' so as to revitalise irself, and the minutiae of trot/anarko/ernie/whatever infighting and jockeying (not to mention the reams of handbag-slinging) is even more off-putting and uninspiring than...well, a 3 hour workshop titled 'the socialist response is...' at Marxism 2004.
which, believe me, is going some.

 

[nosos]

I think the good debate in UK P&P (when it happens) way outstrips the "good" debate in general (which frankly could do with the input of people who are capable of good debate in UK P&P). But an artifical divide has generated because of the mudslinging in UK P&P (which is fun for them...even though it's sometimes offensive to those who you sling at and fuck off with all the grow a back bone bollocks - it's not justification for doing it to begin with, you have no right to cause people offense) and it's not benefically to the 'general' posters who tend to miss out on input from UK P&P.

I agree completely, B - what I don't agree with at all is your dictatorial prescription for 'correcting' UK politics ..

 

[the B]

I don't think it's dictatorial to ask people to stop mudslinging...

I don't mind threads about the SWP etc. - but when they become mudslinging between those who defend the SWP and the rest...it stops being informative...often those threads start ok and quickly turn pretty sour.

Why not cut down on the mud and keep it at a good level of debate?

This thread really is an example of what UK P&P is like to me - there is plenty of mud on this thread that is just bollocks to read and contributed shit all to the thread but some good debate on it...

 

[Corax]

Bollocks to the lot of it.

It's Mike's site, and if he wants a particular rule in place, he'll say so. In the meantime, UKP&P can happily fight amongst themselves, and the rest of us can go back to posting up pictures of kittens wanking over hobnobs.

 

[oisleep]

I don't think it's dictatorial to ask people to stop mudslinging...


Why not cut down on the mud and keep it at a good level of debate?

OK, you and Teejay give a howl when it drops below your perceived idea of good debate!

Good debate to you may be different to good debate for me, why should one persons opinion prevail over someone elses?

 

[nosos]

I don't think it's dictatorial to ask people to stop mudslinging...

You've already suggested changing the FAQ.. you're not asking people to stop mudslinging - you're trying to change the patterns of debate on a forum you don't even contribute on.

ta·tori·al·ly adv.
Synonyms: dictatorial, authoritarian, dogmatic, doctrinaire, imperious, overbearing
These adjectives mean asserting or tending to assert one's authority or to impose one's will on others. Dictatorial stresses the highhanded, peremptory manner characteristic of a dictator: ordered the staff about in her usual dictatorial manner.

I don't mind threads about the SWP etc. - but when they become mudslinging between those who defend the SWP and the rest...it stops being informative...often those threads start ok and quickly turn pretty sour.

Fairy nuff - I think you're massively overstating quite how much mudslinging there is to debate though ..

Why not cut down on the mud and keep it at a good level of debate?

Who's the arbiter of good debate? You? TeeJay?

Or maybe the mods perhaps?

 

[Dubversion]

i can't be arsed to read 8+ pages of circular arguments and whining, so i'm just going to say that in all likelihood i agree with nosher.

i hope

 

[the B]

It shouldn't and doesn't - nor am I trying to make mine prevail - but it's all pretty obvious to everyone what a mudsling is and isn't - they can stop that pretty easily...helps the good debate come through.

 

[nosos]

i can't be arsed to read 8+ pages of circular arguments and whining, so i'm just going to say that in all likelihood i agree with nosher.

You like killing kittens as well?

 

[Dubversion]

keep it at a good level of debate?

with all due respect, your good level of debate is normally sub-literate, incomprehensible circular drivel.

sorry.

 

[the B]

Why can't I make a suggestion?

Are you trying to impose on me what I can and can't suggest

Maybe we should get a mod who can find the time to actually mod UK P&P closely...

 

[nosos]

Maybe we should get a mod who can find the time to actually mod UK P&P closely...

Or maybe you should learn to live and let live - it's how communities coexist ..

I'm off for now - will be back in the small hours to continue the mudslinging..

 

[the B]

A laissez faire attitude? It's possible to reach a stable but possibly unhappy situation.