Did Rumsfield and Chums want and allow 9/11 to happen? The Poll!

[fubert]

Yes, but most of the bonkers conspiracy claims have been made on evidence that is widely available to everyone (the video 'proof' of pod carrying, missile firing, holographic pretend planes hitting the WTC towers, pretend passenger aircraft-missiles hitting the Pentagon, 'controlled demolition' of WTC towers etc etc zzzzzz)

which is where it all falls on its arse basicly. the usg weren't behind it, there are no reptilians controlling planes. no deliberate demolitions of buildings around the wtc...

...just a bunch of bent businessmen and politicians who have seriously capitalised on something that they may have really fucked up on.

 

[fela fan]

China? Aljazeera? The Russians? Indonesia? Jordan? They'd love to see Bush kicked out.

So how come they've not bothered to report this "conspiracy theory"?

You are conversant with the languages of those countries? You know they haven't been investigating the story?

 

[fela fan]

Yes but the point is none of the news organisations / countries I mentioned has chosen to report on this "conspiracy theory" even though they would love to see the end of Bush. If they had, we'd know about it by now. Could it be because they don't think the "evidence" adds up? I think so.

Loki, you just simply don't know what those countries have reported on with regard to 911. And maybe the peoples of those countries would like to see the end of bush, but the leaders? I don't think so for one minute.

And what on earth makes you think a british journo is going to be interested in what an indonesian or chinese paper is saying about 911 when their editors have no truck with themselves writing about the story?

And that would be if they could even speak the relevant language to know what's being reported about. And we all know about americans' and british people's ability at foreign languages.

You have a touching faith in your media. I suggest you reevaluate it.

And ever heard of self-censorship?

 

[Loki]

You are conversant with the languages of those countries? You know they haven't been investigating the story?

Indonesia yes, having lived there for 3.5 years. And I did actually have a quick scan of Kompas and the Jakarta Post earlier on when I wrote my post and not a sausage about any "conspiracy".

 

[fela fan]

Do you really think it would be possible to silence the entire UK media - radio, TV, newspapers, online, freelancers, investigative journalists, authors - and no-one say a thing?!!

[/I]

Editor, with due respect, one only needs to silence about 12 editors in the case of britain's press.

What part do you think self-censorship plays in media organisations in britain? I know you've said before that you've done work on the bbc and were at complete liberty to say what you wanted to. But did you? I use that by way of example to help make my point. And what if on your first airing on the bbc you said what might be unacceptable, do you think you'd've been invited back on again?

If they gave me one free go at free speech, they'd never ever invite me back on again.

 

[Loki]

And what on earth makes you think a british journo is going to be interested in what an indonesian or chinese paper is saying about 911 when their editors have no truck with themselves writing about the story?

Well because it would be an absolutely massive story of course.

 

[fela fan]

Indonesia yes, having lived there for 3.5 years. And I did actually have a quick scan of Kompas and the Jakarta Post earlier on when I wrote my post and not a sausage about any "conspiracy".

Fair enough.

But why would they need to talk of 'conspiracy'? Why use this dreadful word?

Why could they not just write about the anomalies that the USG version presents to questioning minds?

This obsession with 'conspiracy' is damaging to your health.

 

[fela fan]

Well because it would be an absolutely massive story of course.

Why?

 

[Loki]

This obsession with 'conspiracy' is damaging to your health.

It's not a term I coined mate. And I'm not the one with the obsession. I'm simply here to point out that the "evidence" constantly being repeated by the "conspiracy" fans just doesn't stand up.

 

[fela fan]

It's not a term I coined mate. And I'm not the one with the obsession. I'm simply here to point out that the "evidence" constantly being repeated by the "conspiracy" fans just doesn't stand up.

No, but you constantly use the term. Just like the word 'liberal', it has developed its own connotations, which roughly translated, means you're talking shite, and i'm not going to listen any further. It is a real put down, and anybody interested in debate and furthering one's knowledge of life (through the act of listening) would be best advised to not use it.

And you're still at it by describing people like myself with the word as an adjective. I am not a conspiracist, nor am i a fan of conspiracies. Hate them.

I am not so interested in the theories of what happened, far more interested in the millions of holes that are in the official version. And yet, in the process of questioning that version, many posters get vilified by this stupid bloody 'conspiracy' word.

Only one person can coin a term, but to gain currency it needs to be used by many.

 

[editor]

And that would be if they could even speak the relevant language to know what's being reported about. And we all know about americans' and british people's ability at foreign languages.

Err, you are aware that news is translated and shared between all the different countries in the world through global news agencies, aren't you?

Look at the BBC's site. It's stuffed full of stories from other countries. The BBC broadcasts in a huge variety of languages. It has massive language and translation resources. It has hundreds of journalists who can speak multiple languages in news offices scattered all over the world.

Your 'point' is both astonishingly naive and truly ridiculous.

 

[Loki]

OK so you don't like the word. Sorry. But a quick Google shows 454,000 pages using the word in conjunction with 9/11.

 

[fubert]

It's not a term I coined mate. And I'm not the one with the obsession. I'm simply here to point out that the "evidence" constantly being repeated by the "conspiracy" fans just doesn't stand up.

if you're talking about a lack of evidence surrounding the tales of holographic planes, nuclear detonations and missles hitting other buildings then you're spot on.

if you're talking about a lack of evidence about the failings of us intelligence with regard to al-qaedas capabilities i suggest you look at the official 9/11 commision reports. that's the commision that rumsfeld would only give prepared statements to.

 

[editor]

If they gave me one free go at free speech, they'd never ever invite me back on again.

Why that's then, fela?

 

[Loki]

if you're talking about a lack of evidence surrounding the tales of holographic planes, nuclear detonations and missles hitting other buildings then you're spot on.

Yes I am.

if you're talking about a lack of evidence about the failings of us intelligence with regard to al-qaedas capabilities i suggest you look at the official 9/11 commision reports. that's the commision that rumsfeld would only give prepared statements to.

I agree there were huge failings in the intelligence communities of the USA, Britain and other countries. Which is one reason Al-Qaeda got away with it.

 

[fela fan]

Err, you are aware that news is translated and shared between all the different countries in the world through global news agencies, aren't you?

Look at the BBC's site. It's stuffed full of stories from other countries. The BBC broadcasts in a huge variety of languages. It has massive language and translation resources. It has hundreds of journalists who can speak multiple languages in news offices scattered all over the world.

Your 'point' is both astonishingly naive and truly ridiculous.

The bbc web site is my home page.

I was talking about mainstream press.

So what was the Thai Rath reporting on yesterday?

Just because news is available, doesn't mean it's reported on. Just look at the tabloids which barely bother with news. It's all big brother type stuff.

I do wish you'd stop disparaging my points in such negative language. I am a poster who posts his opinions and ideas. By all means rebuff them, but do me the favour of being a human being that just happens to be very skeptical of official versions of anything.

And of being someone that can get things wrong, as well as right.

 

[fubert]

I agree there were huge failings in the intelligence communities of the USA, Britain and other countries. Which is one reason Al-Qaeda got away with it.

right, so you'll know that many members of the bush administration refused to testify, or would only give prepared statements, or did not allow their testimony to become part of the official record.

now, if people can avoid tarring me with the 'reptilian overlord holographic plane mentalist' brush, the above to me does suggest that a lot of people wanted to cover their own arses.

 

[fela fan]

Why that's then, fela?

For a start because i'd tell the british public to stop voting in liars and killers.

Secondly i'd wonder aloud why it's acceptable for britain to go round the world, in the wake of its paymaster america, butchering people for dishonest reasons.

Thirdly, i'd ask why no-one's reporting on what went wrong over 911 in the mainstream press. Why such spectacular incompetence (the only possibility that exonerates the USG from complicity) can go unpunished.

And why do the press ignore such respected writers as Gore Vidal who openly questioned the role of the USG in 911.

And why the press and media in britain continue to ignore the role of the US in killing so many millions around the world in pursuit of its hegemony over the world.

Ah man, it could go on and on.

 

[Loki]

right, so you'll know that many members of the bush administration refused to testify, or would only give prepared statements, or did not allow their testimony to become part of the official record.

now, if people can avoid tarring me with the 'reptilian overlord holographic plane mentalist' brush, the above to me does suggest that a lot of people wanted to cover their own arses.

Of course they wanted to cover their arses, huge mistakes were made. I remember reading one of the hijackers doing flight training was reported to the FBI after he said he wasn't interested in learning take-off and landing, just in-flight flying. The FBI did nothing with the information.

 

[fela fan]

I agree there were huge failings in the intelligence communities of the USA, Britain and other countries. Which is one reason Al-Qaeda got away with it.

And yet no-one is to be punished for these failings? And the fact that Bush is likely to get a second term?

Whatever happened to the 'buck stops with the president'?

And what about the total failure of all supposedly automised procedures during the attacks? And why the president continued listening to goat stories having been told his country was under attack?

The mainstream media have been clearly negligent in investigating the 911 attacks. This is the biggest event probably since the cuban missile crisis or ww2. The (lack of) press coverage is totally at odds with the importance of the event.

 

[fela fan]

Of course they wanted to cover their arses, huge mistakes were made. I remember reading one of the hijackers doing flight training was reported to the FBI after he said he wasn't interested in learning take-off and landing, just in-flight flying. The FBI did nothing with the information.

There we are again! Your faith in what you read as being the truth is amazing!

How do you know what the fbi did with the information?

This belief that the agencies set up to protect and secure the status of the US as being the one and only preeminent empire being so incompetent is too hard to accept.

It might be easier to believe were it burma or zimbabwe, but the US? Next to impossible mate.

 

[editor]

For a start because i'd tell the british public to stop voting in liars and killers......

All of those opinions have already been expressed several times on the BBC by various individuals, although what gives you the right to 'tell' the British people who to vote for is anyone's guess.

 

[fela fan]

OK so you don't like the word. Sorry. But a quick Google shows 454,000 pages using the word in conjunction with 9/11.

I don't care about the word either way.

But i will defend myself against inaccurate descriptions.

You seem to also have faith in the numbers game: if enough say something is true, then it must be.

I cannot accept this.

 

[Loki]

And yet no-one is to be punished for these failings? And the fact that Bush is likely to get a second term?

Whatever happened to the 'buck stops with the president'?

Totally agree. Trust me, I'd love to see Bush go down in flames.

And what about the total failure of all supposedly automised procedures during the attacks? And why the president continued listening to goat stories having been told his country was under attack?

Because he's an idiot?

The mainstream media have been clearly negligent in investigating the 911 attacks. This is the biggest event probably since the cuban missile crisis or ww2. The (lack of) press coverage is totally at odds with the importance of the event.

(sigh) Once more: I think it's because they're not satisfied that there's anything substantial in the "evidence" propounded by the theorists.

 

[fubert]

Of course they wanted to cover their arses, huge mistakes were made. I remember reading one of the hijackers doing flight training was reported to the FBI after he said he wasn't interested in learning take-off and landing, just in-flight flying. The FBI did nothing with the information.

so, to answer the question in the poll :

did rumsfeld want and allow 9/11 to happen - the answer to "want" is probably no, but who knows with that guy. the whole north korea/abb thing pretty much shows he'll do anything for money and fuck the consequences.

did they allow it to happen - that would be a yes, but they didn't deliberately allow it to happen as clearly they had no idea what aq and obl had planned. they knew something was coming, just no idea what or the scale of it.

besides, rumsfelds buddies at haliburton and kbr were looking for a 'regime change' in afghanistan so that they could construct an oil pipeline. they got what they wanted ultimately.

 

[fela fan]

All of those opinions have already been expressed several times on the BBC by various individuals, although what gives you the right to 'tell' the British people who to vote for is anyone's guess.

Oh, bloody hell, no i'd not 'tell' them. I'd point out what we have been doing for any number of years.

My point about free speech is that the speaker has the right to it. If they don't have that right, then free speech is a con.

Free speech also gives the speaker the right to be wrong. But that cannot be judged if they're not allowed to speak.

 

[editor]

There we are again! Your faith in what you read as being the truth is amazing!

So where do you get your information from, fela?

We know you don't read the UK national papers or watch the extensive news reporting and political analysis on UK terrestrial TV so exactly what are you basing your 'insights' on?

 

[fela fan]

(sigh) Once more: I think it's because they're not satisfied that there's anything substantial in the "evidence" propounded by the theorists.

Well, unfortunately you are reduced to thinking this. Because we just don't know if they're satisfied or not, since they've never bothered investigating the events.

And i'm not (sigh...) talking about any evidence propounded by anyone. I'm openly wondering why they're not investigating the official version.

Do you see the difference loki? It's not about investigating what theorists say, it's about investigating what official folk are actually claiming happened.

Why do you think they don't do that?

 

[editor]

Oh, bloody hell, no i'd not 'tell' them. I'd point out what we have been doing for any number of years.

And why would the British publivc need things 'pointed out' to them by a non-resident?

What makes you think you know what's best for them, fela?

 

[fela fan]

So where do you get your information from, fela?

We know you don't read the UK national papers or watch the extensive news reporting and political analysis on UK terrestrial TV so exactly what are you basing your 'insights' on?

Editor, i'm very doubtful about information, wherever it's come from. I can only know what i've experienced for myself.

My insights are from my 40 years of experience of life, of living in two apolar countries, of reading a few million pages of stuff, of finding out directly that 'experts' can get things totally wrong, of speaking and interacting with people of numerous nationalities.

And from my work which requires me to innately understand our language, and what shapes it, influences it, and governs the use of it.