Decriminalisation of the sex industry - Corbyn says yes, what thinks urban?

[bimble]

This confuses me. I'm posting it as a genuine what do you think question.
The recent fallout from Corbyn's statement that he personally would like to see sex work decriminalised, and the reaction to what he said, is interesting, but this argument has been going on since the first wave of feminism.
Jeremy Corbyn: 'I favour decriminalising the sex industry'
Labour backbenchers to confront Corbyn over sex industry stance

Would making sex work legal in the UK be a bad thing or a good thing for women?
pengaleng , just because you are very anti this idea (i think) :
If legalising it would be bad for women, why? Would it not make women safer? I honestly haven't a clue. The Swiss have these on the side of the motorway, very unsexy but arguably safer than getting into a stranger's car?
Switzerland opens drive in 'sex boxes' to make prostitution safer

 

[pengaleng]

I aint getting involved in this, no one will listen to me. I really cant be arsed to deal with more stuff about the sex industry just cus I'm a token.

 

[bimble]

I aint getting involved in this, no one will listen to me. I really cant be arsed to deal with more stuff about the sex industry just cus I'm a token.

I'd listen to you. Also I'm genuinely sorry if I offended, you just seemed like you had a strong view on this, like that it was a bad idea.

 

[pengaleng]

I cant talk freely here, is a public forum, I cant really talk about anything, it's the first rule you learn, and am a hypocrite to my own views.

 

[Geri]

Decriminilisation is not the same as legalisation, is it?

 

[pengaleng]

I will talk about the word 'choice' though, in the media etc and campaigns etc the only people who have a 'choice' when it comes to sex work are the people already comfortable, they have a degree and look young and pretty, have a single life, for the rest is choice still meaning the same thing? it doesn't cus it cant, when someone is campaigning for legalised sex work (ie: theyd be happy that men are able to start businesses renting girls out and taking a cut) ask them about what choice means to them, because it's highly likely that they will be in a position of free choice not realising the next girl is selling herself because shes got no qualifications, is disabled or has kids to feed.

does this make sense? I see choice bandied around, but so many women do not have that freedom.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I don't see why some are if favour of decriminalising some behaviours over proper legalisation and regulation. Decriminalisation strikes me as an unhappy halfway house where the black market still has control.

 

[bimble]

Decriminilisation is not the same as legalisation, is it?

The law in this area is very confused i think, what is legal and what is a crime very unclear to me anyway. 'Soliciting' is illegal but paying for sex isn't?

 

[bimble]

I will talk about the word 'choice' though, in the media etc and campaigns etc the only people who have a 'choice' when it comes to sex work are the people already comfortable, they have a degree and look young and pretty, have a single life, for the rest is choice still meaning the same thing? it doesn't cus it cant, when someone is campaigning for legalised sex work (ie: theyd be happy that men are able to start businesses renting girls out and taking a cut) ask them about what choice means to them, because it's highly likely that they will be in a position of free choice not realising the next girl is selling herself because shes got no qualifications, is disabled or has kids to feed.

does this make sense? I see choice bandied around, but so many women do not have that freedom.

That makes total sense yes. And I reckon you've got straight to the core of it with the question about choice. But is it better for women with no choice to be called criminals on top of everything else they are dealing with ?

 

[pengaleng]

I need to go smoke some weed...

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I'm for legalisation/regulation, but not in a vacuum. The discussion would include bigger financial safety nets, more services for sex workers and also how society treats drug addicts - say, the prescription of heroin to those already addicted so as they don't need to involve themselves in sex work (or criminal activities) for their supply.

 

[pengaleng]

That makes total sense yes. And I reckon you've got straight to the core of it with the question about choice. But is it better for women with no choice to be called criminals on top of everything else they are dealing with ?

who calls them criminals? they arent criminals, I know countless working girls who are registered with HMRC as a sole trader and paying tax, it's a perfectly legal thing to do as set yourself up as an independent escort

This thing about safety is bullshit in 2016, theres countless ways of screening people, theres sites listing offenders, references are given, this whole not safe thing so we need a man to set up a brothel thing is bullshit.

this is just a really scab way for men to gain profit from it and girls have fallen for it.

you really have to be stupid to wanna work for a studio or a brothel instead of yourself, it's hardly fucking beyonce is it? relying on a man to advertise you.

 

[pengaleng]

someone ask corbyn if he's ever been on the game init, am sure he's got loads of inspirational insight.

the other thing with legalisation that no one has worked out is that once something gets legal or decrim status the cost goes down, it's only high value because of the taboo within society, if it was 'normal' it'd be cheap, there'd be an overflow of the market which would lead to cheapening because all these brothels that open will be in competition with each other, cheap pussy aint cute.

 

[bimble]

pengaleng (when you've rolled & returned) .. is it just the punters that Corbyn was talking about then when he said he wants to see prostitution decriminalised ?
I honestly don't get it.
Presumably the women who are listed as self-employed by HMRC and are screening people for safety are kind of relatively ok anyway, compared to those who have no choice at all and are just rented out.
Not all women who have sex for money are registered as sole traders etc, they don't all have nice websites of their own. If they did there would be no problem, or much less of a problem, right?

 

[J Ed]

I will talk about the word 'choice' though, in the media etc and campaigns etc the only people who have a 'choice' when it comes to sex work are the people already comfortable, they have a degree and look young and pretty, have a single life, for the rest is choice still meaning the same thing? it doesn't cus it cant, when someone is campaigning for legalised sex work (ie: theyd be happy that men are able to start businesses renting girls out and taking a cut) ask them about what choice means to them, because it's highly likely that they will be in a position of free choice not realising the next girl is selling herself because shes got no qualifications, is disabled or has kids to feed.

does this make sense? I see choice bandied around, but so many women do not have that freedom.

Liberals love to throw the word choice around. During the graunid coverage of the Nevada Democratic primary the newspaper mentioned that sex workers under the name 'hookers for Hillary' were canvassing for Hillary Clinton. The graunid further explained that they were doing so because their pimp/brothel owner had told them to do so, one of the sex workers mentioned that she preferred Bernie Sanders but was still coerced into canvassing for Hillary Clinton yet somehow the newspaper was still presenting this as 'choice'. I suppose it was a 'choice' in the same way that anything done under the threat of economic coercion is a choice.

 

[pengaleng]

what I don't really get is the 'sex work is real work' thing, thats not really an argument because legally on paper if you're registered and able to pay tax then it actually is real work, a few people have missed the memo on that one that's not an attitude you can change because compared to doing 12 hours on your feet or behind a desk it aint a proper job lol

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Liberals love to throw the word choice around. I suppose it was a 'choice' in the same way that anything done under the threat of economic coercion is a choice.

You mention 'Liberals' as if they are a bad thing? How much choice do any of us have? Assuming you work, do you get up and go to your job because you love it, or out of economic coercion of sorts? I'd rather frame discussion in terms of 'reasonable choice' rather than 'absolute choice'.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

dunno really. not convinced any sort of law is ever going to stop prostitution happening, any more than prohibition stopped booze in the USA, or than it stops people doing recreational drugs.

and it's worth pointing out that there are a fair number of male sex workers out there too, so this isn't entirely a gender thing. although if i don't know if there is the same level of pimping / trafficking with male sex workers as there appears to be with female sex workers.

how do you draw the line between a sex worker doing it through 'choice' and being exploited? there's no doubt some who are fairly clearly at one end of the scale, but i expect there's something of a grey area.

some people in this argument seem to be saying 'should be illegal - trafficking etc' - but surely the present law doesn't work in anyone's favour.

and is the current law stopping those sex workers who are being exploited from seeking help if they are going to risk being prosecuted if they do seek help from 'the authorities' ?

i'm not quite sure exactly what JC's actually said (or expressed a vague opinion on) - and not sure that quite a lot of the politicians / commentators who are making the most fuss are either...

 

[bimble]

what I don't really get is the 'sex work is real work' thing, thats not really an argument because legally on paper if you're registered and able to pay tax then it actually is real work, a few people have missed the memo on that one that's not an attitude you can change because compared to doing 12 hours on your feet or behind a desk it aint a proper job lol

What percentage of the women who get fucked for money in this country do you think are registered as sole traders / self employed with HMRC?
Far as I can see those are a very few, and those are relatively ok compared to the many who are invisible and totally unprotected because what they are doing to survive is illegal?

 

[J Ed]

You mention 'Liberals' as if they are a bad thing? How much choice do any of us have? Assuming you work, do you get up and go to your job because you love it, or out of economic coercion of sorts? I'd rather frame discussion in terms of 'reasonable choice' rather than 'absolute choice'.

I go to work out of economic coercion but I don't have to give blowjobs to people I find repulsive while I am at work.

 

[weltweit]

what I don't really get is the 'sex work is real work' thing, thats not really an argument because legally on paper if you're registered and able to pay tax then it actually is real work, a few people have missed the memo on that one that's not an attitude you can change because compared to doing 12 hours on your feet or behind a desk it aint a proper job lol

If prostitution was fully legal and "normalised", would job centres require unemployed people to accept a jobs as prostitutes?

 

[J Ed]

If prostitution was fully legal and "normalised", would job centres require unemployed people to accept a jobs as prostitutes?

This has subsequently been legislated against but it did come up in Germany as a possibility 'If you don't take a job as a prostitute, we can stop your benefits'

 

[pengaleng]

If prostitution was fully legal and "normalised", would job centres require unemployed people to accept a jobs as prostitutes?

I dont know?? dunno why you think I would

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I go to work out of economic coercion but I don't have to give blowjobs to people I find repulsive while I am at work.

If prostitution was legalised (so could be in premises with cctv, for example), it might be easier for sex workers to knock back clients they really found repulsive. It would probably be easier for a worker to make a complaint if they were threatened or assaulted.

Also, given the amount of porn watched in this country, I don't see why so many people take the moral high ground - because it's not that different, is it?

 

[pengaleng]

If prostitution was legalised (so could be in premises with cctv, for example), it might be easier for sex workers to knock back clients they really found repulsive. It would probably be easier for a worker to make a complaint if they were threatened or assaulted.

Also, given the amount of porn watched in this country, I don't see why so many people take the moral high ground - because it's not that different, is it?

^^^ oh bless

 

[weltweit]

This has subsequently been legislated against but it did come up in Germany as a possibility 'If you don't take a job as a prostitute, we can stop your benefits'

That article is scary. Talk about choice, or lack of it!!

 

[weltweit]

I dont know?? dunno why you think I would

It was just something that sprung to mind once before when this subject came up.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

^^^ oh bless

Well, thanks! I know it's not that easy or rosy! As I said, I'm for legalisation/regulation but with a lot of discussion around safety/support/reasonable choice and also other issues that might feed into sex work (drug addiction, etc).

 

[pengaleng]

It was just something that sprung to mind once before when this subject came up.

I forgot to add 'know' on the end of that, am a bit blazed and tired rn

 

[DotCommunist]

used to have a christian moral hangover but these days I think sex work has to be legalised, unionised and afforded the same protections as any other work. I might not like it, but it goes on. And always has. So I'd rather what state protection is afforded to other workers is extended to sex workers. Too many fucking pimps, too many trafficked women in 40 quid walk ups. Just not on. Organised crime does so very well out of it as well. I don't want it. But if it has to exist, then for fucks sake can't we look after the worker in that situation with rigorous rules and shit? OB don't give a shit about slapped round sex workers. The dead ones excite no great interest either.