Curfew For Men

[Sue]

This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable

'Ladies night'? I feel like we've just slipped back to the 80s...

 

[Athos]

I have always, and my heterosexual friends too, had the best nights in gay clubs. I simply won’t go out to the straight clubs now, it’s like a bear pit and I’m sick of it and I’ll lose my shit and punch someone soon. Very, very rarely have an issue in gay clubs though. Great nights.

Now me my mates are a bit older (and not 'on the pull') we sometimes end up in gay clubs, occasionally as an all-male group. And you're right that it's a much nicer environment. On the odd occasion that a bloke's tried it on with me, I've just said 'sorry mate, not interested' (which I feel better about than saying I'm not gay, as that'd invite the not unreasonable question of why I'm in their space), the reaction has always been completely cool - not like the way I've seen straight men act towards women who rebuff them. And, funnily enough (going back to Sheila's point) it is something we've discussed.

 

[bimble]

This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable

Ladies night!

Oli have you ever seen women dancing and thought that they were not doing it “provocatively”? What was the difference?

 

[Athos]

This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable

People who observe rule breaking all feel empowered and supported to challenge it, and, ultimately the organisers reserve the right to sling people out.

 

[Philo]

Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

This is the issue, how do you police it? I think ladies night would be more workable

This is the thing again. Blokes can't and won't change so it's unworkable so women have to do something different rather than men trying to change.

 

[Orang Utan]

Ladies night!

Oli have you ever seen women dancing and thought that they were not doing it “provocatively”? What was the difference?

The only provocative dance I’ve ever seen is the haka

 

[Orang Utan]

Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?

Knock yourself out.

 

[purenarcotic]

Now me my mates are a bit older (and not 'on the pull') we sometimes end up in gay clubs, occasionally as an all-male group. And you're right that it's a much nicer environment. On the odd occasion that a bloke's tried it on with me, I've just said 'sorry mate, not interested' (which I feel better about than saying I'm not gay, as that'd invite the not unreasonable question of why I'm in their space), the reaction has always been completely cool - not like the way one seen straight men act towards women who rebuff them. And, funnily enough (going back to Sheila's point) it is something we've discussed.

I do hear things about for gay men in particular the scene can be pretty savage. And look at that serial rapist last year; something like over 200 men raped by him? At least that, possibly more. But when I go to a gay club I don’t have to worry about being approached, at least by the men. And if women do, I don’t fear saying no in the same way. It doesn’t happen in the same way. But then I’m also mindful that I am lesbian and so these are spaces ‘for me’ in a way a straight club isn’t.

 

[chilango]

And do you and your friends talk together about women’s rights, gender politics, sexism and so forth?

Yes. We do. But I only hang out in mixed groups. Not deliberately, that's just how things have panned out.

 

[izz]

Why would the overwhelmingly vast majority of men have to have their personal freedom restricted because of the heinous actions of the extreme minority?

It's a daft idea to even suggest it.

Doubtless many others have said "But why should all women be expected to stay indoors just because only the extreme minority get kidnapped and murdered", but I couldn't resist it.

 

[Sue]

I do hear things about for gay men in particular the scene can be pretty savage. And look at that serial rapist last year; something like over 200 men raped by him? At least that, possibly more. But when I go to a gay club I don’t have to worry about being approached, at least by the men. And if women do, I don’t fear saying no in the same way. It doesn’t happen in the same way.

Yep. And being able to dance or chat with people and for it be fun and to part on 'have a great night' terms without there being any shit. That.

 

[Poot]

Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?

Because applauding an event that was reprehensible and avoidable and infuriating seems like the wrong response? I mean, crack on if you think it'll help, by all means.

 

[campanula]

Um, have just whipped to the end of the thread (so probably missed something pertinent) but felt compelled to mention that while women may have been advised to stay safely in our homes (during at least one notorious episode within my lifetime)...we didn't. O no, we took to the streets in loud, boisterous marching, shouting, banging on our pots and pans and feeling...fucking invincible. I would be thrilled to see a revival of Reclaim the Night marches (obvs, when pandemic restrictions allow) because we are certainly not served by being passive, meek and obedient. I participated in many of these protests, with my kids, both male and female) and it honestly felt as though feminism had become mainstream (I guess friendofdorothy has some memories of this). Power....who has it and for what use, was the basic issue for me...and I much regret the slow subsiding of feminism as it became slowly subsumed in a welter of capitalist machinations (the confusing 3rd wave)...not least the fucking pornographers playground of the internet. When we were conned into thinking that our bodies were actually just another commodity to be bartered (and those who resisted were nastily let down by our own sisters ...cos hey, we are taking charge of our own bodies to sell as we like. Sure you are. I definitely recall feeling diminished for not embracing the glorious opportunities to become female pornographers, kink shaming, the vile attitudes towards less photogenic feminists such as Andrea Dworkin. Yep, quite a few older women felt politically homeless,
I think the sexual freedom for everyone has come back to bite us in the arse, watching our daughters and grand-daughters doing that endless dance of wanting to belong, to have agency...but only being accepted if we put our bodies up for titillation. Course, this might just be me (I have, for the longest time, turned my back on the treacherous world of sex for power)...but all the great new promised freedoms of a newsexual revolution has not really benefitted me and mine in any noticeable way...although I will concede that the commodification of the self has badly affected men...but since the initial power imbalances never came near to a fair resolution, this was only ever going one way. For brutal illustration...when middle class women get their kit off (for money) it is burlesque. When w.c women do it, we are just strippers. Yep, I know this is hugely simplistic...but it holds an undeniable truth (for me) that we have a bloody long way to go.

 

[Athos]

I do hear things about for gay men in particular the scene can be pretty savage. And look at that serial rapist last year; something like over 200 men raped by him? At least that, possibly more. But when I go to a gay club I don’t have to worry about being approached, at least by the men. And if women do, I don’t fear saying no in the same way. It doesn’t happen in the same way. But then I’m also mindful that I am lesbian and so these are spaces ‘for me’ in a way a straight club isn’t.

Yeah, I'm not necessarily saying that gay men are angels; the lack of an aggressive reaction might be as much to do with the fact I'm a 6'3", well-built, confident bloke in my 40s. Just that, whatever the reason, there is a marked difference from how I've seen a lot of men react to women in clubs who turn them down - from uncomfortable insitence right through to outright violence.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Clubs can be the utter worst.
One night I went to started really underground and had pleasant everyone is here for the music vibe. It probably still had its share of creeps but I didn't notice them if they were there.
As soon as the night got bigger and got a larger crowd the mood shifted drastically. One night no one was on the (large) dance floor so I went out to do a bit of dancing.
after a minute or two a few women came out and started to dance too (it was near me but not exactly with me) almost immediately a group of men came out and basically barged me out of the way so they could be the ones dancing with the women. Now at the time I didn't really think much about how that would have felt for the women as it didn't look like it bothered them but looking back I wonder how it felt to them.

 

[campanula]

weird dbl post.

 

[8ball]

Um, have just whipped to the end of the thread (so probably missed something pertinent) but felt compelled to mention that while women may have been advised to stay safely in our homes (during at least one notorious episode within my lifetime)...we didn't. O no, we took to the streets in loud, boisterous marching, shouting, banging on our pots and pans and feeling...fucking invincible. I would be thrilled to see a revival of Recalim the Night marches (obvs, when pandemic restrictions allow) because we are certainly not served by being passive, meek and obedient. I participated in many of these protests, with my kids, both male and female) and it honestly felt as though feminism had become mainstream (I guess friendofdorothy has some memories of this). Power....who has it and for what use, wasthe basic issue for me...and I much regret the slow subsiding of feminism as it became slowly subsumed in a welter of capitalist machinations...not least the fucking pornographers playground of the internet. When we were conned into thinking that our bodies were actually just another commodity to be bartered (and those who resisted were nastily let down by our own sisters (cos hey, we are taking charge of our own bodies to sell as we like. Sure you are. I definitely recall feeling diminished for not embracing the glorious opportunities to become female pornographers, kink shaming, the vile attitudes towards less photogenic feminists such as Andrea Dworkin. Yep, quite a few older women felt politicallyt homeless,
I think the sexual freedom for everyone has come back to bite us in the arse, watching our daughters and granbd-daughters doing that endless dance of wanting to belong, to have agency...but only being

I had wondered about the Reclaim The Night thing and where things stood with it. The timing def seems right.

 

[8ball]

Clubs can be the utter worst.
One night I went to started really underground and had pleasant everyone is here for the music vibe. It probably still had its share of creeps but I didn't notice them if they were there.
As soon as the night got bigger and got a larger crowd the mood shifted drastically. One night no one was on the (large) dance floor so I went out to do a bit of dancing.
after a minute or two a few women came out and started to dance too (it was near me but not exactly with me) almost immediately a group of men came out and basically barged me out of the way so they could be the ones dancing with the women. Now at the time I didn't really think much about how that would have felt for the women as it didn't look like it bothered them but looking back I wonder how it felt to them.

Can relate to that. Has happened on a few occasions and ended up different ways.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

And do you and your men friends generally talk about gender politics, women’s rights, misogyny, sexism etc? Has that ever been part of your discourse?

Yes, but I accept that it's not been often enough. Politics and current affairs play a role in discussion fairly regularly and when those current affairs are framed around women's rights etc, then of course they are discussed. I hope that we'll be more proactive in setting the discourse rather than reactive - it shouldn't have taken Sarah Everard's murder to make us aware of this.

 

[bellaozzydog]

One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?

Fuck off

 

[campanula]

Ah, I know I am banging on a bit here...but most women are not at risk while walking the streets (or going to nightclubs). 2 women are killed every week by partners and ex-partners. The damnger is not outside the home but deep within the supposedly safe environs of home and family. Yep, there are toxic, hateful attitudes towards women but lets not pretend that it is just the faceless predator here...it seems that any man can feel empowered enough to raise a fist, dish out a slap, a punch, a beating ffs. This goes much deeper than stranger-danger and has tainted our basic relationships. We need allies here...but we do have to have an awareness of who /what is the enemy here.

 

[Philo]

I am in favor of 'reclaiming the night', but I am not in favor of 'reclaiming' Clapham Common, which is supposed to be a 'safe space' for gay men.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

 

[oli_1_uk]

People who observe rule breaking all feel empowered and supported to challenge it, and, ultimately the organisers reserve the right to sling people out.

I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.

 

[Athos]

I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.

A bit of both. Plus the fact that this sort of night would be unlikely to attract the sort of people who'd cause issues.

 

[Orang Utan]

I think it would be more down to the organisers putting in enough security measures in place to protect people, random customers going up to challenge people who are possibly drunk could lead to more problems and possibly violence.

It’s perfectly possible to intervene without violence - have done it twice in clubs where fellas have got too - once telling the promoter what was going on and them getting security to eject them and once in that shitpit Fabric where a few of us surrounded a dickhead and danced him away from the woman he was harassing

 

[oli_1_uk]

This is the thing again. Blokes can't and won't change so it's unworkable so women have to do something different rather than men trying to change.

I think it's just a more realistic option

 

[Athos]

I think it's just a more realistic option

I'm a bit cynical about how much you really want to find a solution.

 

[oli_1_uk]

It’s perfectly possible to intervene without violence - have done it twice in clubs where fellas have got too - once telling the promoter what was going on and them getting security to eject them and once in that shitpit Fabric where a few of us surrounded a dickhead and danced him away from the woman he was harassing

It's possible you're right, I think going to security would be the wise option, the concern with surrounding someone is you could get a very bad reaction where they attack you, they could be carrying a weapon, the could get their friends for backup, they could wait for you after you leave the club to attack you. May sound dramatic but it does happen.