Curfew For Men

[8ball]

This is still making it about an atomised self making better choices. It’s still about objectifying the other and just finding more technically accurate ways of interacting with that object. It’s what I mean when I say that the entire way this debate is framed starts from the very assumptions about how society works that guarantee that the problem will not be resolved.

I’m not having a go at you, personally. I understand how this looks like a useful suggestion and there’s way more egregious behaviour than this! But it’s a useful illustration of what I’m trying to say.

I really don’t think it illustrates anything like that at all. Communicating better with people is hardly a shortcut to atomisation or objectification.

 

[neonwilderness]

I'm also very aware of lone women or girls if I'm out when it's dark - I rarely get home before six and to go out - and I'm aware I'm a big fella with a shaved head in black, mostly, so I slow down, speed up, cross roads, etc.

I've become a lot more aware of this during the recent lockdowns as everywhere is quieter (particularly when I've been exercising in the evening when it's dark) and have been a bit more conscious to make sure no one things I might be following them by crossing the road, going a different way or whatever. I don't think I'm a particularly intimidating person, but maybe on a quiet street at night someone else might think differently.

So keep doing it. It makes a difference. Also when other men or women who are uncomfortable with their behaviour see you it will encourage them to speak out too.

I think this is the important thing. Once one person speaks up then it's likely that a few more will start to chip in. I know that's easier said than done, but the more it happens hopefully the easier it'll be.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?

First thing is to acknowledge that I'm part of the problem. If the world was as simple as "is this man a predatory rapist and/or murderer, yes/no", then no of course I'm not. But it's not that simple, every single man registers somewhere to some extent on the sliding scale that runs from saint to Ghengis Khan. I need to think more about how my actions affect other people, specifically women - from things I knowingly do to being more aware of things I might unknowingly do.

As an example, that heightened sense of awareness that women have to have when walking anywhere - I should have that. Me just bimbling along on my way home in a world of my own, I know I'm not a threat to anyone. But others around me don't know me, I need to take responsibility and accept that "I wasn't doing anything" isn't good enough.

There seems to be this idea that the next step has to be "everyone needs to convince a rapist not to be a rapist". I don't think that's realistic or practical - more that I need to make sure that I'm as far down the sliding scale as I can possibly be (in terms of both behaviour and external perception), and any time anywhere I can be in a position of influence with other men (be it my stepson, my friends, my work colleagues, or a complete stranger) I can do whatever it takes to bring them back a step or two as well. Something akin to the Overton window in politics, individual and collectivist action to shift the entire narrative.

 

[Clair De Lune]

I’ve done the “just stop it” conversation twice with groups of men i’ve been in pubs with

Both times it went down really badly. It’s seems blokes are incredibly uncomfortable when they a “given a lecture” and play the “it’s just a bit of fun” card


Last year during eat out to help out with a friend of a friend in his 40s who incessantly and very obviously leered at a young bar worker and repeatedly try to engage in conversation with her when she went passed our table. She was obviously uncomfortable with this behaviour

being told women aren’t there for your entertainment, they aren’t out solely to be picked up and it’s insanely unlikely they are attracted to some drunk twat 20 years older than them really upsets men.

I did it with a group of middle class married friends I’ve know since the early 90s the “it’s just a bit of fun” card got played.
Asking how they would feel if it was their daughters on the receiving end of a group of drunken 40+ men Made for an uncomfortable atmosphere

both times the the message was received as “spoiling the night” and the question “what the fucks wrong with BellaOzzyDog, miserable twat”

lockdown has meant I’ve seen neither groups since.

My take on it is that your normal everyday bloke genuinely thinks because he isn’t out there at night with a ski mask and a claw hammer attacking women and has a wife and family that he isn’t contributing to issue of women’s safety

the disconnect is startlingly obvious when you juxtapose a mixed pub night out with partners versus “blokes only”, the pinnacle of this being stag dos

Men in my experience seem to actively want to uncouple from the “civilising” effect of their partners and exhibit these shit patterns of behaviour, which would really upset them if they thought women in their family were exposed to it

it’s a cultural disregard for women. I was in my local with my sister one night and every man at the bar (we knew them all and all their partners) had their mobile phones on the bar and as partners rang or texted themin turn, dismissed the beeps and rings with scorn and or “humorous” derogatory comments

The message being the age old “her indoors” dismissiveness

my sister realised that this was exactly what was happening when she texted her partner to see when he was coming home. She was understandable fucking irate observing it in real time from the other side

When twats turn up on urban using the term “liberal woke” for behaviour that is just decency and respect for other humans there is along way to go to start fixing these issues

The mention of a men’s curfew unfortunately feeds into the culture war, pc/woke gorn mad situation we are in now.

The presentation of extreme hypothetical solutions to a problem which needs concerted long term multi generational changes in attitudes in society is a risky tactic
People will have conversations on social media but the people who need to be involved in these conversations may already have been alienated polarised by the conversation and end up in the #NotAllMen Daily Mail woke gone mad team

I think things are changing slowly for the better. My housemates all mid 20s have noticeably different attitudes to my generation and my nephews, step nephews and their friends have a much healthier respectful kinder attitudes to a wide range of issues, gender, sexuality, relationships, mental health etc

schools seem to be doing something right

This is an important bit imo. The way some men (quite a lot actually ...in work, at the pub, with friends or in sports teams etc) change completely when there are no women about. This is something common which men can call out before it escalates. Why are you talking differently now your wife/girlfriend isn't here? To challenge the attitude that loving your wife and having respect for her as a human being means you're pussy whipped. Because guys get swept up in this and fall into line with the group even if they secretly hate the laddish 'locker room' chat. It's really creepy to overhear this shit as a woman. To hear 'nice guys' change their tone and act like a boys club makes us feel like the nice guy shit is an act to get us into bed, convince us to get married or have your children and leach off our kindness and naivety. Ugh.

 

[Cid]

Got to looking at some sexual assault stats last night. England & Wales is depressingly way ahead of everyone else. Like almost three times the number, per head of population, to the nearest other country in Europe (if you discount Sweden who count differently apparently).

Which EU countries have the highest rate of sex crimes?

Eighty per cent of sexual assualt victims are women. The UN's International Day for the Elimination of Violence against Women aims to stop this and other violence against women from happening

www.euronews.com

Without wishing to go too far off the rails, what applies to Sweden will also apply to England and Wales to an extent. Recording and reporting practices in the police have changed substantially over the last couple of decades, particularly since 2013/14 (major report highlighting signifiant under-recording)... So if you look at the raw statistics over that period you will see a huge rise. But if you look at survey data (section 5, figure 3), which should provide a better picture as it's self-reported, anonymised etc you see a slight decrease in sexual violence. It is basically very difficult to compare these things across countries, and using the raw recorded crime statistics tends to make countries that have improved their practices look worse.

 

[Poot]

First thing is to acknowledge that I'm part of the problem. If the world was as simple as "is this man a predatory rapist and/or murderer, yes/no", then no of course I'm not. But it's not that simple, every single man registers somewhere to some extent on the sliding scale that runs from saint to Ghengis Khan. I need to think more about how my actions affect other people, specifically women - from things I knowingly do to being more aware of things I might unknowingly do.

As an example, that heightened sense of awareness that women have to have when walking anywhere - I should have that. Me just bimbling along on my way home in a world of my own, I know I'm not a threat to anyone. But others around me don't know me, I need to take responsibility and accept that "I wasn't doing anything" isn't good enough.

There seems to be this idea that the next step has to be "everyone needs to convince a rapist not to be a rapist". I don't think that's realistic or practical - more that I need to make sure that I'm as far down the sliding scale as I can possibly be (in terms of both behaviour and external perception), and any time anywhere I can be in a position of influence with other men (be it my stepson, my friends, my work colleagues, or a complete stranger) I can do whatever it takes to bring them back a step or two as well. Something akin to the Overton window in politics, individual and collectivist action to shift the entire narrative.

This is all true.

I think sometimes men are 'other-ed' when they do something shameful. Like when you hear about a man beating up a partner and people say, 'well, of course, he's not a real man if he does that.' Well, yes, I'm afraid it must be accepted that he is a man. As a starting point. Real men don't hurt women? Well, yes, they do. No matter how painful it is for men to get their head around, those monsters are still men I'm afraid.

 

[Edie]

I think a lot differently to the ideas being expressed in this thread but at the moment with clearly a lot of women feeling very upset I don’t think it’s the time to be expressing them. For the record.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Just fucking talk to each other.

It’s not enough to pull your brothers up and call them out for crappy behaviour in the moment. You need, all of you need to change the way that will land, by changing the fact that you don’t have any conversations about women’s rights .

Because you don’t, do you, not with each other.

You might be teaching gender politics to youngsters, or even older males, but I ask again: when was the last time you had a calm normal general conversation with your men friends about women? This conversation right now: have you ever had a similar conversation with men when women weren’t there?

If yes, is it enough, is it with the same one or two people and never more openly? Is it often enough? Because only talking about it when something horrible happens, or when #metoo is trending isn’t enough.

It needs to be part of your ongoing general discourse. You need to share ideas with each other, cos were out of ideas, frankly. We keep saying the same things, trying the new things, and yet here we still are.

You need to be comfortable chatting about it so that when you do have cause to call someone out, or step in to pull one of your brothers back, you’re not breaking the code. Cos that’s why Bimble’s estate agent didn’t step in, not because he was scared his mate would turn into a Begbie, but because he couldn’t break ranks and go against the fucking code.

In most cases it’s not fear of rage that stops you, it’s fear of being laughed at, being mocked

Break ranks. Break the code.

When I’ve said this to men irl they say to me “how do I do that? I don’t know how to start this conversation”. Well I don’t fucking know do I! If men don’t know how to talk to each other, that’s not something women can fix, is it.

Put your house in order men. Please.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think a lot differently to the ideas being expressed in this thread but at the moment with clearly a lot of women feeling very upset I don’t think it’s the time to be expressing them. For the record.

Oh come off it Edie You want in and to express them so crack on. DId someone tag you and ask you to speak? Of course not, that would be odd...please don't do the mystery, for the record thing. Having different views doesn't stop you generally does it?

 

[chilango]

SheilaNaGig I can't remember the last time I had a conversation just with other men. I don't think I've been in a situation where I've been just with other men for about 6 or 7 years tbh.

I'm not disagreeing with your point btw, just musing to myself about what I should be doing...

 

[killer b]

I can't remember the last time I had a conversation just with other men.

I was just thinking this. 'what conversations with other men?'

I suspect this is very widespread, and also part of the problem.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

We have a climate at the moment, being whipped up by the Government and the media, where "calling out" shit behaviour (be it racism, sexism, transphobia or whatever) is met by entitled defensiveness and a doubling down both on the original behaviour and their "right" to do it.

It's shit.

...and frightening.

Again, I think you are half right in that you seem to suggest the battle is only being waged by one side. It’s not. This is a debate that needs to be had but not on this thread.

Where I think you are on the money is that the ‘debate’ on this issue this week has been especially depressing and illuminating.

All of us on here see the extent of the problem every day. It’s everywhere, it’s persistent, it’s multi generational, it crosses class and race, it’s embedded in our culture and it’s something I saw as a kid and I see still as a middle aged man. My wife, no shrinking violet and never slow to fight fire with fire endures it every week of her life with a comment, a gesture or just someone coming the cunt. At work, on the street, in the shops: everywhere. All the time.

Yet the discourse we (the ‘nation’, the society, the culture) have increasingly collapsed into on this and everything else increasingly emphasises division and searching for and seizing upon comments on both sides that further cleave people apart and that deliberately seek out emphasise and create further division. It’s a toxic process.

Instead of finding points of unity and building out from there the emphasis is now always on finding division which then flows out into wider divides and enmities. It’s demobilising, corrosive and frankly fucking depressing.

We collectively need to think where that approach leads, in whose interests it operates, what it results in when we try to mobilise and the immediate and longer term consequences for our politics in becoming participants in it. Having a row on a message board is fine but what I’m talking about is radioactive and flowing into every part of society and life.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Good thread. Mebbes Curfew is a non stater and could well be counter productive. Sadly until “men” take this on board on call it out at all levels , I don’t see much changing. Not that men should be have a go heroes but the the seeping tacitly accepted toxic attitudes have to be tackled

 

[Treacle Toes]

.... on the men speaking to other men front....this can happen in all arenas and at all levels...on the other thread we were discussing just how many TV shows have male on female violence as central to the narrative/entertainment value..that's men speaking to men, and women.

 

[killer b]

.... on the men speaking to other men front....this can happen in all arenas and at all levels...on the other thread we were discussing just how many TV shows have male on female violence as central to the narrative/entertainment value..that's men speaking to men, and women.

I shared a link to that documentary on facebook in the hope of starting a conversation, and it got a tenth of the likes of my other update yesterday about my cute kids, and no actual replies. The only men who liked it are already posting on this thread.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I honestly don’t know. I’ve deliberately been cutting out of my life toxic men from the time I was a teen - I just don’t have anything to do with men who outwardly display that behaviour.

So that leaves two classes of men - the ones I don’t know who act without respect and the ones I do know who act without respect but behind closed doors. I have called out the first but only on a few occasions when I was confident I wouldn’t get beaten up. As to the second - there probably have been times when someone I know has said something off colour and I need to get better at getting over the social awkwardness of calling that out.

Happy to listen to any ideas from others though.

SheilaNaGig I can't remember the last time I had a conversation just with other men. I don't think I've been in a situation where I've been just with other men for about 6 or 7 years tbh.

I'm not disagreeing with your point btw, just musing to myself about what I should be doing...

I was just thinking this. 'what conversations with other men?'

I suspect this is very widespread, and also part of the problem.

Yes, exactly. This is what I hear men tell me, and I do think it’s part of the problem.

You need to break the patterns imposed on you by the patriarchy. And I reckon that talking with each other has to be a part of that. The ones who are more emotionally courageous can demonstrate to others that you don’t melt or explode when you talk about your feelings, and others will take courage from that.

Talk to each other. It’s great that you talk with your wives, sisters, women friends, daughters, mums and aunties about your feelings (those of you who do that...) ; but you’ve got to start talking to each other. Because only men know what it’s like to be a man. How are you supposed to tackle things like male on male violence, the awful suicide rates, workers rights for men, the changing role of men, paternity leave and yes, your collective misogyny, if you don’t talk about these things with each other?

If you talked more with each other, maybe you’d have a better idea about how to tackle the friend with the really shitty attitudes, maybe it would be easier to call out the sexist, maybe it would be easier to stand up to the Begsbie.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Oh come off it Edie You want in and to express them so crack on. DId someone tag you and ask you to speak? Of course not, that would be odd...please don't do the mystery, for the record thing. Having different views doesn't stop you generally does it?

Actually, Edie I was thinking that you probably had a different take in some of this and wondered where you were.

 

[killer b]

maybe you’d have a better idea about how to tackle the friend with the really shitty attitudes, maybe it would be easier to call out the sexist, maybe it would be easier to stand up to the Begsbie.

tbh I do all that. But I'm rarely in social situations these days (not just the last year) where those shitty attitudes are on display.

 

[oli_1_uk]

I'm not going to unpack all of this (because there's so much wrong with it), but maybe you've inadvertently stumbled on a small practical step we could take as men - club nights with a ground rule that men won't approach women. Where, if women want to speak to or dance with a man, they'll say so (and you leave them alone unless and until they do).

One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

tbh I do all that. But I'm rarely in social situations these days (not just the last year) where those shitty attitudes are on display.

Again,

This is what I’m hearing men say.

Decent men end up not hanging out with other men.

What’s up with that?!

I mean seriously.

What the fuck is up with that?!

 

[Orang Utan]

One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?

How about everyone dancing together and keeping their fucking hands to themselves?

 

[Orang Utan]

Again,

This is what I’m hearing men say.

Decent men end up not hanging out with other men.

What’s up with that?!

I mean seriously.

What the fuck is up with that?!

Who wants to hang out with dickheads?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Why is it that decent men choose not to hang out with men...



(Crass generalisation going on here, but I think you see what I’m saying )

 

[killer b]

Again,

This is what I’m hearing men say.

Decent men end up not hanging out with other men.

What’s up with that?!

I mean seriously.

What the fuck is up with that?!

I used to, but when I stopped drinking the opportunities became much more limited. I've yet to find a satisfactory solution to that one.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Who wants to hang out with dickheads?

Come on, sort this shit out.

Women don’t want to hang out with dickheads either, but they impose themselves on us.

You get to avoid them, we don’t.

 

[Winot]

Why is it that decent men choose not to hang out with men...



(Crass generalisation going on here, but I think you see what I’m saying )

I hang out with plenty of decent men. Just not dickheads.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I used to, but when I stopped drinking the opportunities became much more limited. I've yet to find a satisfactory solution to that one.

Well they still go about being dicks. They don’t disappear of the face of the planet.

And they sure as shit don’t pay any attention to what we want, say, hope.

So it sometimes feels as if you've left us to our fate with these dicks.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I hang out with plenty of decent men. Just not dickheads.

And do you and your friends talk together about women’s rights, gender politics, sexism and so forth?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Actually, Edie I was thinking that you probably had a different take in some of this and wondered where you were.

Did you really? It hadn't occurred to me to wonder where anyone man or woman is/was. People have lives, other stuff that needs attention etc.

 

[Athos]

One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?

No, people can mingle, but the expectation is that men won't approach women without invitation. That'd be clear to anyone who went to that venue/night. If they don't like it, they needn't attend. And if they break the rules they'll be asked to leave. Simple.