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Curfew For Men

I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?

I honestly don’t know. I’ve deliberately been cutting out of my life toxic men from the time I was a teen - I just don’t have anything to do with men who outwardly display that behaviour.

So that leaves two classes of men - the ones I don’t know who act without respect and the ones I do know who act without respect but behind closed doors. I have called out the first but only on a few occasions when I was confident I wouldn’t get beaten up. As to the second - there probably have been times when someone I know has said something off colour and I need to get better at getting over the social awkwardness of calling that out.

Happy to listen to any ideas from others though.
 
This puts the responsibility back on women. It sounds a lot like my mother in law who insists that 'in my day we just slapped men' and doesn't understand why that's not really workable or desirable.

No, not responsibility, just protection as unless you think it's possible for things to change overnight then something like that might be needed. But yes, I take the point, but it also wasn't entirely serious.

The serious bit to it is the answer to the question above about what can be done, as depressingly I'm not sure things will actually change that much.
 
I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?
Speaking up about shit behaviour at work and amongst people you know, even if it feels awkward and if it annoys or embarrasses people - I have had a tiny amount of training on this on the work side and it was pointed out that it is everyone’s responsibility to ensure their colleagues are kept safe and are not harassed or discriminated against - if we spot something potentially dangerous at work, it’s our responsibility to report it. It’s drummed into us from a H&S angle to report curling rugs, blocked fire doors, dodgy electrics, so why not office creeps too? We should extend this sense of responsibility outside work of course. And men must be aware that the consequences of speaking out could be less costly for them than it could be for their female colleagues/friends etc. Having an awkward conversation and feeling momentarily unpopular amongst peers is surely preferable than being harassed and attacked and persecuted? Don’t assume that a woman is ok with another man’s behaviour just cos she doesn’t complain or laugh it off. If you think something’s wrong, say so.
We can also examine our own past behaviour and think about how it might/almost certainly have contributed to this toxic macho culture.
Be vigilant when out and about and challenge cat callers and harassers in public.
I’m sure there’s loads more things we could do, but I haven’t had my coffee yet.
 
I'm luckily in a position to help educate about 130 male students and part of that is challenging and rerouting some of the already-ingrained attitudes the world bombards them with. I'm also very aware of lone women or girls if I'm out when it's dark - I rarely get home before six and to go out - and I'm aware I'm a big fella with a shaved head in black, mostly, so I slow down, speed up, cross roads, etc. Challenging jokes, too, I don't stand for sexist or racist stuff and say so.

Not sure what else I could do

ETA try harder not to be a dick like I've been in the past, especially in my twenties but on occasion still
 
I've got to admit that at this point, I'm pretty despairing of what can be done. Even the way the whole subject is framed means that it isn't going to be resolved. It gets discussed in terms of individuals -- individual decisions, individual behaviours, individual freedoms, individual nature. But this isn't a problem of "the individual". In fact, it is the prevailing culture of society, in which people are thought of as distinct individuals that kind of meander their way throught life by bumping off other individuals like billiard balls or atoms, that is the very heart of this problem. It's what allows us to carve off other entities as "not-us" and objectify them. Sometimes that objectification means that we give them the lowest wage that we can get away with and not worry ourselves about the consequences on their lives. Sometimes that objectification means that we see them as objects of sexual gratification that can be raped and murdered. Either way, it comes from a lack of empathy, which derives from not understanding that our fellow humans exist in a social web with us, and that we are defined by those interactions, not by some kind of totally isolated, intra-psychic essence of the self.

In the 1970s and 1980s, it seemed like we might be getting somewhere with this. There was focus on social reproduction, emotional labour, self-commodification and how power relations subjectify indivduals into accepting their -- and others' -- place in their hierarchy. This led to looking at what the historic role of women had been and how to respect these roles more. But then neoliberalism fought back and gave us the trappings of equality whilst privatising the way labour is able to reproduce itself. The result was further self-commodification and the message that any problems you still face, women, are now all on you -- after all, we've given you equality, what more do you want?

Women still faced structural inequality everywhere but the language to talk about it was increasingly lost or removed -- it's all about choice! And if you make the wrong choices, well, that's all on you. Tough shit. So get those exams, women, and enter the meritocratic system! But when you get there, still be feminine, still be a woman, which involves all the things you shouldn't do as a woman, like challenge authority. Be good, but not too good. Be professional but make sure you don't look like a man. Make sure you consult the fashion-beauty complex to ensure everyone knows you are feminine as well as successful. Be girl power! You're in control of your sexual freedom, but don't be too free. It's all on you now.

In a world in which choice is king, how is it anybody else's responsibility to direct the choices of others?

I am aware that this is a lament, not constructive. What am I doing? I've spent decades trying to point out the practical effects of this kind of objectification and atomisation in day to day life. Every time I hear men talking in a way that objectifies in all its forms -- not just sexual objectification -- I raise the problem. It's done nothing except isolate me. People know what I think and they don't care. I can't fight the entire social environment just by saying things to people. It's hopeless.
 
Speaking up about shit behaviour at work and amongst people you know, even if it feels awkward and if it annoys or embarrasses people ..
yes this, please. One time i was walking home along coldharbour lane and two drunk young men in suits behind me, and then one of them started hassling me, remarking to his mate about me as if i wasn't there, then loudly asking me stupid questions, touching my arm and crowding me and his friend did and said nothing, until it was over i'd accellorated and said leave me in peace and then he said really quietly sorry about that.
He could have stopped the whole stupid thing with a word but didn't have the courage, didn't want to seem uncool in front of his mate or something. They were estate agents, i remember that for some reason don't know how that came out :(
 
I understand you don't agree with my comments, just a perspective different than yours, sadly the woke liberals will take this over with "male privilege" like they did with "white privilege" with the BLM movement, more things to divide people than bring them together.

Anyway that's going off topic, have a nice day.

oli, oli, oli, fuck right off!

Always loved that chant.
 
I’ve done the “just stop it” conversation twice with groups of men i’ve been in pubs with

Both times it went down really badly. It’s seems blokes are incredibly uncomfortable when they a “given a lecture” and play the “it’s just a bit of fun” card


Last year during eat out to help out with a friend of a friend in his 40s who incessantly and very obviously leered at a young bar worker and repeatedly try to engage in conversation with her when she went passed our table. She was obviously uncomfortable with this behaviour

being told women aren’t there for your entertainment, they aren’t out solely to be picked up and it’s insanely unlikely they are attracted to some drunk twat 20 years older than them really upsets men.

I did it with a group of middle class married friends I’ve know since the early 90s the “it’s just a bit of fun” card got played.
Asking how they would feel if it was their daughters on the receiving end of a group of drunken 40+ men Made for an uncomfortable atmosphere

both times the the message was received as “spoiling the night” and the question “what the fucks wrong with BellaOzzyDog, miserable twat”

lockdown has meant I’ve seen neither groups since.

My take on it is that your normal everyday bloke genuinely thinks because he isn’t out there at night with a ski mask and a claw hammer attacking women and has a wife and family that he isn’t contributing to issue of women’s safety

the disconnect is startlingly obvious when you juxtapose a mixed pub night out with partners versus “blokes only”, the pinnacle of this being stag dos

Men in my experience seem to actively want to uncouple from the “civilising” effect of their partners and exhibit these shit patterns of behaviour, which would really upset them if they thought women in their family were exposed to it

it’s a cultural disregard for women. I was in my local with my sister one night and every man at the bar (we knew them all and all their partners) had their mobile phones on the bar and as partners rang or texted themin turn, dismissed the beeps and rings with scorn and or “humorous” derogatory comments

The message being the age old “her indoors” dismissiveness

my sister realised that this was exactly what was happening when she texted her partner to see when he was coming home. She was understandable fucking irate observing it in real time from the other side

When twats turn up on urban using the term “liberal woke” for behaviour that is just decency and respect for other humans there is along way to go to start fixing these issues

The mention of a men’s curfew unfortunately feeds into the culture war, pc/woke gorn mad situation we are in now.

The presentation of extreme hypothetical solutions to a problem which needs concerted long term multi generational changes in attitudes in society is a risky tactic
People will have conversations on social media but the people who need to be involved in these conversations may already have been alienated polarised by the conversation and end up in the #NotAllMen Daily Mail woke gone mad team

I think things are changing slowly for the better. My housemates all mid 20s have noticeably different attitudes to my generation and my nephews, step nephews and their friends have a much healthier respectful kinder attitudes to a wide range of issues, gender, sexuality, relationships, mental health etc

schools seem to be doing something right
 
yes this, please. One time i was walking home along coldharbour lane and two drunk young men in suits behind me, and then one of them started hassling me, remarking to his mate about me as if i wasn't there, then loudly asking me stupid questions, touching my arm and crowding me and his friend did and said nothing, until it was over i'd accellorated and said leave me in peace and then he said really quietly sorry about that.
He could have stopped the whole stupid thing with a word but didn't have the courage, didn't want to seem uncool in front of his mate or something. They were estate agents, i remember that for some reason don't know how that came out :(
Oh God, the man apologising for (actually, more often than not excusing) the unacceptable behaviour of his friend after the fact thing.

Whenever this has happened and I've said 'you shouldn't be apologising/excusing your mate to me, you should be telling him his behaviour is unacceptable and why and not after it's all over either', it's been met with incomprehension or them getting annoyed at my lack of grace in accepting their 'apology'. 😡
 
Oh God, the man apologising for (actually, more often than not excusing) the unacceptable behaviour of his friend after the fact thing.

Whenever this has happened and I've said 'you shouldn't be apologising/excusing your mate to me, you should be telling him his behaviour is unacceptable and why and not after it's all over either', it's been met with incomprehension or them getting annoyed at my lack of grace in accepting their 'apology'. 😡

Guess it’s possible the idiot was also a bit of a violent twat and his mate (the apologiser) was intimidated by him.
 
Given the number of times this happens, there must be load and loads of men who're intimidated by their friends. :rolleyes: If that were me, I'd be getting myself some new friends.

Really shit that this has happened so often. And yeah, with young guys (in my generation at least) it wasn’t so uncommon for groups of lads to have a ‘Begbie’ among them.
 
We have a climate at the moment, being whipped up by the Government and the media, where "calling out" shit behaviour (be it racism, sexism, transphobia or whatever) is met by entitled defensiveness and a doubling down both on the original behaviour and their "right" to do it.

It's shit.

...and frightening.
 
Guess it’s possible the idiot was also a bit of a violent twat and his mate (the apologiser) was intimidated by him.

I don't reach for that excuse first. I've had the same happen and it was more that they knew their friend's behaviour was wrong but their loyality, in the moment, was to be a wing man, because their friend 'deserved' to act up, cos you know, just being a bloke, banter LOL :rolleyes:
 
Really shit that this has happened so often. And yeah, with young guys (in my generation at least) it wasn’t so uncommon for groups of lads to have a ‘Begbie’ among them.
Happens. And this isn't just younger men either or big groups of lads.
 
bellaozzydog your post reminded me of the few times I have been called a 'cock blocker' for intervening when i've seen men behaving in leechy/entitled ways with other women in bars/clubs. I was made to feel that it was more a case of me being jealous that that attention wasn't being directed at me also. :facepalm: :rolleyes:

I know this is like a fart in a tornado regards the bigger problem, but I wonder whether better education (not just for the very young) in terms of reading body language might help a tiny bit. There are so many men out there that can’t get it through their skull that a woman isn’t interested.
 
I’ve done the “just stop it” conversation twice with groups of men i’ve been in pubs with

Both times it went down really badly. It’s seems blokes are incredibly uncomfortable when they a “given a lecture” and play the “it’s just a bit of fun” card


Last year during eat out to help out with a friend of a friend in his 40s who incessantly and very obviously leered at a young bar worker and repeatedly try to engage in conversation with her when she went passed our table. She was obviously uncomfortable with this behaviour

being told women aren’t there for your entertainment, they aren’t out solely to be picked up and it’s insanely unlikely they are attracted to some drunk twat 20 years older than them really upsets men.

I did it with a group of middle class married friends I’ve know since the early 90s the “it’s just a bit of fun” card got played.
Asking how they would feel if it was their daughters on the receiving end of a group of drunken 40+ men Made for an uncomfortable atmosphere

both times the the message was received as “spoiling the night” and the question “what the fucks wrong with BellaOzzyDog, miserable twat”

lockdown has meant I’ve seen neither groups since.

My take on it is that your normal everyday bloke genuinely thinks because he isn’t out there at night with a ski mask and a claw hammer attacking women and has a wife and family that he isn’t contributing to issue of women’s safety

the disconnect is startlingly obvious when you juxtapose a mixed pub night out with partners versus “blokes only”, the pinnacle of this being stag dos

Men in my experience seem to actively want to uncouple from the “civilising” effect of their partners and exhibit these shit patterns of behaviour, which would really upset them if they thought women in their family were exposed to it

it’s a cultural disregard for women. I was in my local with my sister one night and every man at the bar (we knew them all and all their partners) had their mobile phones on the bar and as partners rang or texted themin turn, dismissed the beeps and rings with scorn and or “humorous” derogatory comments

The message being the age old “her indoors” dismissiveness

my sister realised that this was exactly what was happening when she texted her partner to see when he was coming home. She was understandable fucking irate observing it in real time from the other side

When twats turn up on urban using the term “liberal woke” for behaviour that is just decency and respect for other humans there is along way to go to start fixing these issues

The mention of a men’s curfew unfortunately feeds into the culture war, pc/woke gorn mad situation we are in now.

The presentation of extreme hypothetical solutions to a problem which needs concerted long term multi generational changes in attitudes in society is a risky tactic
People will have conversations on social media but the people who need to be involved in these conversations may already have been alienated polarised by the conversation and end up in the #NotAllMen Daily Mail woke gone mad team

I think things are changing slowly for the better. My housemates all mid 20s have noticeably different attitudes to my generation and my nephews, step nephews and their friends have a much healthier respectful kinder attitudes to a wide range of issues, gender, sexuality, relationships, mental health etc

schools seem to be doing something right

Not many people take being told off very well, especially in public. Most of us, especially if drinking, will be a bit belligerent and try to style it out if someone calls us out when were being dicks. However the more likely they are to be called out on it the less likely they are to keep doing it. It's not much fun if your peers arent jollying you along.

So keep doing it. It makes a difference. Also when other men or women who are uncomfortable with their behaviour see you it will encourage them to speak out too.
 
I don't reach for that excuse first. I've had the same happen and it was more that they knew their friend's behaviour was wrong but their loyality, in the moment, was to be a wing man, because their friend 'deserved' to act up, cos you know, just being a bloke, banter LOL :rolleyes:

The fact that they apologised makes it obvious that they know a line was crossed. The ‘wing man’ thing is really pathetic.
 
The fact that they apologised makes it obvious that they know a line was crossed. The ‘wing man’ thing is really pathetic.

Yes they knew he had crossed a line but still let it happen and only apologised afterwards thinking I would realise they were actually a decent bloke. It didn't make me realise that. It made me realise that they valued their friend's right to harrass me more than my rights not to be harrassed.
 
Got to looking at some sexual assault stats last night. England & Wales is depressingly way ahead of everyone else. Like almost three times the number, per head of population, to the nearest other country in Europe (if you discount Sweden who count differently apparently).

 
I know this is like a fart in a tornado regards the bigger problem, but I wonder whether better education (not just for the very young) in terms of reading body language might help a tiny bit. There are so many men out there that can’t get it through their skull that a woman isn’t interested.
This is still making it about an atomised self making better choices. It’s still about objectifying the other and just finding more technically accurate ways of interacting with that object. It’s what I mean when I say that the entire way this debate is framed starts from the very assumptions about how society works that guarantee that the problem will not be resolved.

I’m not having a go at you, personally. I understand how this looks like a useful suggestion and there’s way more egregious behaviour than this! But it’s a useful illustration of what I’m trying to say.
 
Got to looking at some sexual assault stats last night. England & Wales is depressingly way ahead of everyone else. Like almost three times the number, per head of population, to the nearest other country in Europe (if you discount Sweden who count differently apparently).

Almost like the anglophone countries come from a more intensively consumer-capitalist ethos than others, isn’t it?
 
I know this is like a fart in a tornado regards the bigger problem, but I wonder whether better education (not just for the very young) in terms of reading body language might help a tiny bit. There are so many men out there that can’t get it through their skull that a woman isn’t interested.

Education isn't a one off experience.

Education isn't only for school or college.

Education isn't just for the young.

We are all 'teachers' , 'students' and 'mentors' because of that.
 
This is still making it about an atomised self making better choices. It’s still about objectifying the other and just finding more technically accurate ways of interacting with that object. It’s what I mean when I say that the entire way this debate is framed starts from the very assumptions about how society works that guarantee that the problem will not be resolved.

I’m not having a go at you, personally. I understand how this looks like a useful suggestion and there’s way more egregious behaviour than this! But it’s a useful illustration of what I’m trying to say.

As a balance to your post above, there are still some non-atomised parts of society. I am thinking specifically of churches/mosques/synagogues but I’m sure there are secular examples.
 
Yes they knew he had crossed a line but still let it happen and only apologised afterwards thinking I would realise they were actually a decent bloke. It didn't make me realise that. It made me realise that they valued their friend's right to harrass me more than my rights not to be harrassed.

Yeah, sadly can’t disagree.
 
I would love to hear from the men of urban what it is they’re going to do about this. A curfew isn’t going to happen in reality, nor are silly ideas about women tasering men, so it’s pointless talking about it. But perhaps men could tell us what they will be doing differently from now on, to help change things. Male violence is women’s problem because we are victim to it, but it’s men’s problem to ultimately resolve. So what are you going to do next?
Good question. I guess re-examine my own attitudes and behaviour; a lot of listening; try to set a good example to the young people in my life; discuss this issue with other men much more; do more to challenge any inappropriate I come across; the practical things that might put women more at ease e.g. hang back so I'm not walking close to them; and, continue to press for changes to the law, and for better provision for women's services. Plus anything else that I can think of, or that anyone can recommend (without putting the onus on anyone else to come up with ideas).
 
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