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Curfew For Men

SheilaNaGig said:
This is so grim.
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It is absolutely and utterly grim. The second story is par for the course, I'm afraid, in terms of women's rights.

The first one is horrific and my guess is that the rapid growth in online porn (which I'd guess is easily available to those below 18) is mainly to blame.

I haven't seen any porn since I was in my teens (which is a bloody long time ago) but reading stuff about currently available online porn, it is obvious that demeaning women e.g. forcing oral sex, violence, etc. is endemic.

The (tongue in cheek) idea of a curfew for men has raised interesting questions but as well as better laws against violence against women, online porn is the one of the first areas that needs to be addressed. See also: revenge porn, sexting.
 
David Clapson said:
Radical feminist groups used to argue for lesbian separatist communities. As far as I know, only one got off the ground, somewhere in the US. I saw a film about it. It disintegrated after male babies were born. (I can't remember how the mothers got pregnant, but the biological fathers never lived in the community.)
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I’m not sure why you’ve said this, what it contributes to the current discussion, what point you’re trying to make.

But anyway, for information, there were loads of women only communities, and a few are still going but not thriving.

www.reuters.com

Evolve or die: the stark choice facing America's 'women's lands'

At the end of a dirt road that curls deep into the wooded hills of Vermont, a white farmhouse in overgrown meadows hides decades of U.S. women's history - and a once thriving community, now in steady decline.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
oryx said:
It is absolutely and utterly grim. The second story is par for the course, I'm afraid, in terms of women's rights.

The first one is horrific and my guess is that the rapid growth in online porn (which I'd guess is easily available to those below 18) is mainly to blame.

I haven't seen any porn since I was in my teens (which is a bloody long time ago) but reading stuff about currently available online porn, it is obvious that demeaning women e.g. forcing oral sex, violence, etc. is endemic.

The (tongue in cheek) idea of a curfew for men has raised interesting questions but as well as better laws against violence against women, online porn is the one of the first areas that needs to be addressed. See also: revenge porn, sexting.
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I don't know. I think porn is an easy target as it is already considered morally dubious and it's a lot easier to blame it rather than to blame wider societal failings
I think that this style of porn is more a symptom than a cause. Not to say that it plays no part in normalising extreme behaviour but I think saying it's the main cause is almost an easy out for people.
Although i am with you on revenge porn stuff. Nasty stuff.
 
Shippou-Sensei said:
I don't know. I think porn is an easy target as it is already considered morally dubious and it's a lot easier to blame it rather than to blame wider societal failings
I think that this style of porn is more a symptom than a cause. Not to say that it plays no part in normalising extreme behaviour but I think saying it's the main cause is almost an easy out for people.
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I don't see the vilification of a certain type of porn as a moral thing - porn has been around for centuries and probably always will be. It's reading about the type of porn that is ultra-demeaning to women and which seems to be currently prevalent that is so awful, and I can't help but think that it gets into the heads of some young men, as in the ones Orang Utan was posting about.

I don't think it's the only cause, but is a possibly a major one. If that's how you learn to see women sexually, how does it affect you?
 
Curfew would not work and it just opens up another can of worms as men could just say they identified as women.

The sad truth is that women will always be targets as most of the time they are not as physically strong as a man so can be overpowered. Women shouldn't have to take extra steps to protect themselves but it's the sad reality we live in, I don't think there is a clear solution to the problem. Also when you consider places like pubs and nightclubs sexual harassment claims can be more murky as alochol is involved.
 
If this is the only way a young person see seuality then yes. However isn't that more of a damning statement about how we educate these young people about sex and relationships.
Again I don't want to give porn a free pass. The power dynamics and horror stories from that industry are terrible. Part of the reason I haven't looked at anything live action in what seems like forever..
 
oli_1_uk said:
Curfew would not work and it just opens up another can of worms as men could just say they identified as women.

The sad truth is that women will always be targets as most of the time they are not as physically strong as a man so can be overpowered. Women shouldn't have to take extra steps to protect themselves but it's the sad reality we live in, I don't think there is a clear solution to the problem. Also when you consider places like pubs and nightclubs sexual harassment claims can be more murky as alochol is involved.
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Well this is another steamy hot take.
Don't know where to start with this.
 
Shippou-Sensei said:
If this is the only way a young person see seuality then yes. However isn't that more of a damning statement about how we educate these young people about sex and relationships.
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I might be being ultra naive here, but I suspect the majority of parents and certainly schools are pretty careful about teaching about consent, respect, etc.
 
oryx said:
Well just for starters, shouldn't it be the case that it's not so much a problem with alcohol as with predatory men?
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All depends on the situation, could it be predatory men or mixed messages received from women or both, that's why alcohol could be a factor and nightclubs can have a more sexual atmosphere
 
oryx said:
I might be being ultra naive here, but I suspect the majority of parents and certainly schools are pretty careful about teaching about consent, respect, etc.
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If that was the case then why would this porn be so brainwashing. If these people had a decent set mental tools to understand consent and respect why would this be the tipping point?
(i'm asking this as an open question I don't mean this as a rebuttal)
to give a different example there is a lot of violence in films, tv, and videogames. Violence is glorified and incentivised in these forms of media.
However we don't expect people to go out and start beating up people and stealing cars just because they play GTAV 5 hours a day.
Not a great analogy but I think it has some relevance. Why do we think we can separate media from reality in one case but not the other. what is different?
Again this is me just sort of thinking it through out loud. I don't actually know enough about this extreme porn to accurately comment on it.


although I do remember last time the government weighed in on extreme porn it did so in a way that that disproportionately affected areas of female sexuality.
 
Shippou-Sensei said:
If that was the case then why would this porn be so brainwashing. If these people had a decent set mental tools to understand consent and respect why would this be the tipping point?
(i'm asking this as an open question I don't mean this as a rebuttal)
to give a different example there is a lot of violence in films, tv, and videogames. Violence is glorified and incentivised in these forms of media.
However we don't expect people to go out and start beating up people and stealing cars just because they play GTAV 5 hours a day.
Not a great analogy but I think it has some relevance. Why do we think we can separate media from reality in one case but not the other. what is different?
Again this is me just sort of thinking it through out loud. I don't actually know enough about this extreme porn to accurately comment on it.


although I do remember last time the government weighed in on extreme porn it did so in a way that that disproportionately affected areas of female sexuality.
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Car crime and physical violence is pretty endemic, though.

I'm always quite horrified at the way violence is portrayed and effectively normalised on TV and in films.

Its normalisation surely has an effect.
 
oli_1_uk said:
Understandably you may not agree
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I do think it is understandable that I disagree with a post that starts of with a line that is a really bad take on the utterly shit time trans men and women (especially trans women) are having in the current cultural climate.
I think it understandable for me to disagree with a next line that basically says it's down to women to deal with this because men will never change.
I think it is also understandable of me to disagree with a final point which then places the blame on women for getting drunk and implies that men get a pass if they do something with someone who wasn't capable of giving proper consent.

because i really don't agree with all of that.
 
oryx said:
What do you mean by 'mixed messaged from women'?
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Wanting a guy one minute then not the next, dancing provocatively with a guy then pushing him away, kissing him then not speaking with him again, the guy may pursue the woman but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed. The guy should leave the girl alone of course, but alochol thrown into the mix can cause a lot of miscommunication from both parties
 
And what is the guy doing during this encounter?

Is he doing nothing, being shoved around by this drunk dancing flirting woman? Or is he perhaps being more pushy than she’d like, breaching boundaries, chancing his arm, pushing his luck, being more handsy than she’s comfortable with?

Maybe it’s not mixed messages, maybe it’s something else, maybe he’s making assumptions about her flirting, how drunk she is, maybe he’s assuming he can force and bully her into doing what he wants, rather than allowing her to go at her own pace and make her own mind up as she goes along.
 
Shippou-Sensei said:
I do think it is understandable that I disagree with a post that starts of with a line that is a really bad take on the utterly shit time trans men and women (especially trans women) are having in the current cultural climate.
I think it understandable for me to disagree with a next line that basically says it's down to women to deal with this because men will never change.
I think it is also understandable of me to disagree with a final point which then places the blame on women for getting drunk and implies that men get a pass if they do something with someone who wasn't capable of giving proper consent.

because i really don't agree with all of that.
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For the trans part people will take advantage of that, that's a reason you won't see a curfew.
For the other 2 parts there's no blame going around, just a realistic perspective in my opinion.
We agree to disagree
 
oryx said:
Car crime and physical violence is pretty endemic, though.

I'm always quite horrified at the way violence is portrayed and effectively normalised on TV and in films.

Its normalisation surely has an effect.
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It probably does. How much it does I'm not sure.

The way I described it to students in the past was like this.
Imagine you play a lot of war based first person shooters. Lot's of playing a person who uses a gun and various other methods to kill enemies.
Do it think you will go out and stab or shoot someone in the street after playing the game? no, of course not.
What if you were later hired as a police officer and were given a gun. When you saw someone who you defined as a bad guy appear in front of you how much of your previous mindset of using killing as your method of solving problems will influence what you do in those split seconds?
Now from what little I have heard thankfully in the UK military at least de-escalation is a major training point. That and the disconnect from game to real life means that the latest batch of soldiers who grew up on playing call of duty are not overly influenced by that. Again this is half remembered stuff from documentaries and youtube video essays so take all that with a pinch of salt
 
oli_1_uk said:
Wanting a guy one minute then not the next, dancing provocatively with a guy then pushing him away, kissing him then not speaking with him again, the guy may pursue the woman but because she wants nothing more she feels harassed. The guy should leave the girl alone of course, but alochol thrown into the mix can cause a lot of miscommunication from both parties
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You need to have a proper think about what you've said here.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
And what is the guy doing during this encounter?

Is he doing nothing, being shoved around by this drunk dancing flirting woman? Or is he perhaps being more pushy than she’d like, breaching boundaries, chancing his arm, pushing his luck, being more handsy than she’s comfortable with?

Maybe it’s not mixed messages, maybe it’s something else, maybe he’s making assumptions about her flirting, how drunk she is, maybe he’s assuming he can force and bully her into doing what he wants, rather than allowing her to go at her own pace and make her own mind up as she goes along.
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Again this is where alcohol is involved, people take chances, right or wrong.
 
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