Curfew For Men

[SheilaNaGig]

I think better would be "OK, so what do we think could be done without having to pretend it's feasible".

Go on then....

 

[BlanketAddict]

No, the longer term solution is not education. Not on its own. The portrayal of women in mass culture has to change too Orang Utan

A very good point.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I start with helping my sister with my niece and nephew and bringing them up the right way, just like my family did for me.
I also show respect for others, male or female.
It might sound trite and simplistic perhaps but I believe in it, positive role models can have an important influence, even if it's just teaching the young uns the difference between right and wrong when they might occasionally slip up!

What moves do you undertake? Similar I would hope. Real change is best achieved if you start young I believe.

Well of course, but that’s baseline.

I don’t see why raising children to have a functioning moral compass should be considered radical ffs.

And in the meantime? While these good and righteous children are being raised? What should be done, right now, today, to help make things better so that it doent fall to them to make the radical changes when they finally grow up.

 

[8ball]

Getting dangerously close to that right wing notion that being horrible is human nature and nothing can be done to change it

In some senses it’s true to a varying extent, but human nature does get rolled out almost exclusively when discussing the shittier side of human behaviour.

 

[BlanketAddict]

Well of course, but that’s baseline.

I don’t see why raising children to have a functioning moral compass should be considered radical ffs.

And in the meantime? While these good and righteous children are being raised? What should be done, right now, today, to help make things better so that it doent fall to them to make the radical changes when they finally grow up.

It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal. And it's not radical, but positive.

As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!

What would you do?

 

[Orang Utan]

It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal.

As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!

What would you do?

It’s not a question to ask of women but of men

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal.

As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!

What would you do?

No, it’s not universal. Which is in part why we need to do all sorts of other things too.

And I’m really tired and bored of talking about the world I’d like to see with regards to this stuff, how it might be achieved what needs to be addressed etc.

I really want men to start thinking about it and talking about irl.

That has to start with men saying “what I’m doing isn’t enough yet... what else, what more, can I be doing”


Pickman's model outlined some stuff earlier, go back and read that, have a think about how you (collective men) can engage with that stuff.

 

[BlanketAddict]

It’s not a question to ask of women but of men

Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?

Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?

It's a question to be asked of everybody no?

 

[8ball]

Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?

Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?

It's a question to be asked of everybody no?

Agree. Some of the stories I’ve heard this week have brought things into some focus. Wouldn’t have done that by just talking with men.

 

[campanula]

There is a shit ton of stuff which can be done to both increase awareness of violence...from the obvious practical things such as better street lighting, a willingness to tackle institutional misogyny, listening to what women actually want and need (better housing, employment rights, childcare initiatives, increased health facilities, education, more women-only spaces, increased legal representation, much more help and support for small scale local initiatives such as literacy and numeracy, better engagement with within local authority structures with much wider representation for women across class, cultural and ethnicity lines (and not some top-down community elder shit but space for bottom-up sustainable organising)...using the idea of curfew as a means to empathy , a visceral illustration of what it means, having freedoms curtailed because of an ever-present sense of injustice and oppression. It's a conversation...but we need a lot more than that.

 

[BlanketAddict]

No, it’s not universal. Which is in part why we need to do all sorts of other things too.

And I’m really tired and bored of talking about the world I’d like to see with regards to this stuff, how it might be achi vec, what needs to be addressed etc.

I really want men to start thinking about it and talking about irl.

That has to start with men saying “what I’m doing isn’t enough yet... what else, what more, can I be doing”.

I would say dialogue is the best way forward. Don't leave it up to men on their own to work out!
The best way for men to understand women, and how their behaviour affects them will require women to educate them as well.
Don't leave it exclusively to men!

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It might be baseline, but I would bet it's certainly not universal. And it's not radical, but positive.

As for the second part of your quote, who knows, the issue is a very complex one not easily solved (or else it would have already been solved). I don't pretend to be the person to wave a magic wand or have all the answers!

What would you do?

What books do your kids read. What tv shows and video,games do they engage with. Do you encourage them to think this stuff through?

 

[Orang Utan]

I would say dialogue is the best way forward. Don't leave it up to men on their own to work out!
The best way for men to understand women, and how their behaviour affects them will require women to educate them as well.
Don't leave it exclusively to men!

But it’s always been up to the women to fix the men and do all the hard work of educating them on how not to be a shit. Surely it’s our turn to do the legwork?

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I think I should try to do a bit more trying to address this stuff with my students. Normally this doesn't come up that often outside of tutorials.
I remember doing a session on consent and while broadly the points went across I do remember that a few of the male students felt that when this topic came up it was an attack against them from women. Like that a woman who they slept with was going to suddenly jump around and claim the guy was at fault.
Myself and the other (male) tutor tried to convey how astronomically unlikely that is compared to the real problems with assault. I mean I know people often get hung up on what's a downside to them but it did give me pause for thought (I think I may have said something along the lines of stop being so bloody thirsty.)

I have had to cut out two people in the past for stuff like this. One was a person I knew from wayback in secondary school. back in the 2010s he friended me on facebook but practically immediately after went through my list of female friends and creeped on them. That was hard unfriend. Part of the reason i'm glad to be gone from facebook.
The other was a guy who was a proper old school geek friend also from school days. He felt ultra depressed about his social life and unfortunately fell into the pick up artist crowd (sarging specifically).
He turned from a nice guy I'd be happy to make computing jokes with to an utter horrific sleaze. He fell right into the disgusting shitty misogynistic pick up artist mind set. Also had to radically unfreind. I hear he actually managed to settle down a bit after getting into a proper relationship but man it was horrible to see it happen. Tried to pull me into it as he saw me as a someone in the same situation. Thankfully I have fairly decent self acceptance and saw this cult for what it is.

 

[Orang Utan]

Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?

Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?

It's a question to be asked of everybody no?

You were asking a woman what she’d done as if it was her responsibility as much as men’s.

 

[BlanketAddict]

What books do your kids read. What tv shows and video,games do they engage with. Do you encourage them to think this stuff through?

My sisters kids.

In reality it's a battle to get them off the tablets playing games but we all make a real, conscious effort to teach them about the fundamental rights of the equality of all people.
Living in a part of the country where there is little to no diversity things can crop up, recently for example about race. These things have to be nipped in the bus so the kids understand it's not right, or cool, to discriminate.

Their school I have to say is great, it's a primary but already projects on equal rights, how people are different etc ( along with the obligatory dinosaur stuff)!

As I said, you've got to start young, and have a positive family atmosphere.

 

[BlanketAddict]

You were asking a woman what she’d done as if it was her responsibility as much as men’s.

No.

She asked me, I replied, and then asked her.

That's wrong? Dialogue helps.

 

[BlanketAddict]

But it’s always been up to the women to fix the men and do all the hard work of educating them on how not to be a shit. Surely it’s our turn to do the legwork?

No.

Progress has to come via dialogue and work between both sexes.

Don't leave it just to men, you need women's input!

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Any solution or progress surely requires everyone to engage?

Men are exclusively going to work it out? Without women's input and dialogue?

It's a question to be asked of everybody no?

I’m really pleased you’re asking these questions but honestly, this feels like circling back to the ABCs of this issue.

We have been talking about this and dealing with this shit for decades. This thread is us talking a bout it. We’ve been waiting for men, you and your brothers, to join in the conversation.

We can’t get any further without you, men, really engaging with the conversation, the ideas. Not so much about us, women, and our tits and our rights, but about you, your behaviour, your attitudes, your inbuilt belief structures. And it’s you, not us, you who are expert in that.

We observe and we absorb your attitudes and beliefs structures, but it’s you who hold them; they are yours to do with as you choose. They’re not ours to change, they’re yours. You can wield your artitude, you can use them to bash me, you can defend ithem and stand firm in them, or you can evolve and develop them. I can’t do any of that,

I can’t even influence you, if you keep saying “I’m not a problem, I’m not the problem”.

It is utterly exasperating to have to keep repeating the same stuff over and over again, but I will, each time a man goes “uh... maybe I do have to think about this.. I will go back to square one again. Because I know that when I run out of steam, one of my sisters will come along and take up the work alongside. Just as I do for her.

We’ve GOT to do better, because what we’ve got now doesn't work. It’s no good and we have to change it.

 

[BlanketAddict]

I’m really pleased you’re asking these questions but honestly, this feels like circling back to the ABCs of this issue.

We have been talking about this and dealing with this shit for decades. This thread is us talking a bout it. We’ve been waiting for men, you and your brothers, to join in the conversation.

We can’t get any further without you, men, really engaging with the conversation, the ideas. Not so much about us, women, and our tits and our rights, but about you, your behaviour, your attitudes, your inbuilt belief structures. And it’s you, not us, you who are expert in that.

We observe and we absorb your attitudes and beliefs structures, but it’s you who hold them; they are yours to do with as you choose. They’re not ours to change, they’re yours. You can wield your artitude, you can use them to bash me, you can defend ithem and stand firm in them, or you can evolve and develop them. I can’t do any of that,

I can’t even influence you, if you keep saying “I’m not a problem, I’m not the problem”.

It is utterly exasperating to have to keep repeating the same stuff over and over again, but I will, each time a man goes “uh... maybe I do have to think about this.. I will go back to square one again. Because I know that when I run out of steam, one of my sisters will come along and take up the work alongside. Just as I do for her.

We’ve GOT to do better, because what we’ve got now doesn't work. It’s no good and we have to change it.

I agree Sheila.

And it might be infuriating but maybe starting with ABC's is required for a lot of men.

I work in a warehouse, over 100 men to 3 women (really!). ABC's would be a good start, sad but reality.

But I stick to my point, women's input would be required and massively beneficial!

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I agree Sheila.

And it might be infuriating but maybe starting with ABC's is required for a lot of men.

I work in a warehouse, over 100 men to 3 women (really!). ABC's would be a good start, sad but reality.

But I stick to my point, women's input would be required and massively beneficial!

Yes yes.

And believes me, I do, patiently and with as much love as i can muster, talk with men at their own pace and trying not to cause them too much bruised ego, how fucked up some of their attitudes are.

Like the diligent chap who proudly told me he was an ally and then said “becasue women are better than men, we need to take better care of you”.

Back to square one.

 

[Orang Utan]

I think I should try to do a bit more trying to address this stuff with my students. Normally this doesn't come up that often outside of tutorials.
I remember doing a session on consent and while broadly the points went across I do remember that a few of the male students felt that when this topic came up it was an attack against them from women. Like that a woman who they slept with was going to suddenly jump around and claim the guy was at fault.
Myself and the other (male) tutor tried to convey how astronomically unlikely that is compared to the real problems with assault. I mean I know people often get hung up on what's a downside to them but it did give me pause for thought (I think I may have said something along the lines of stop being so bloody thirsty.)

The following probs needs to be spoilered and CWed - gruesome detail of sexual violence and ingrained misogyny in schools:
I have worked in two schools. At the first school, 4 15 year old boys were prosecuted, permanently excluded and placed on the sex offenders list for forcing a 13 year old girl with learning difficulties to give them oral sex. They filmed it on their phones and uploaded it onto social media. The boys were popular and I managed to intercept a petition that some pupils were trying to print out to protest against the school excluding them. The poor girl was being judged for it and it was felt the boys were being unfairly treated for it, despite them making and publishing child pornography and raping a child. I had not realised until then how insidious this shit is - it was a proper wake up call.
In the next school, an all boys Catholic school, the culture of misogyny was ingrained, even amongst the teachers. The headmaster's response to endless catcalling and harrassment of female staff was to order the boys to stop calling female staff 'Miss' and address them as 'Madam' instead. To his credit, one teacher pulled some strings at his alma mater and called in Laura Bates of Everyday Sexism to give a talk to both the boys and the staff. She didn't pull her punches and shocked many with descriptions of violent pornography, below the line comments and obscenities and threats that women receive online and in real life, but the Q&A session afterwards revealed how little the boys were taking in - eg one boy stated that all women who dressed up were prostitutes. I was a librarian there, so I had the chance to fill the library with feminist and radical texts before I left (under a bit of a cloud) - not even one teacher showed an interest in using any of these books in lessons at any point but were happy to take publicity photos of Bates meeting senior staff in front of the display I did of these texts for the occasion. Still, at least the books were still there and the boys and staff were exposed to a different view on things - I fear that things will change slowly by process of attrition but it's not soon enough, which is why we need to take tragedies like as an opportunity to widen the discourse and make radical change more possible.

 

[Doodler]

Until those places no longer lend themsleves the flashers and sex pests, who move onto other locations.

The same form of argument could be used to rebut demands for better lighting in streets and parks, or indeed any practical proposal likely to being about modest improvements.

You're missing the point.

No, I'm aware of the bigger picture but see no point in investing much time in expounding my views in full, since while I doubt you would find them objectionable, there is nothing original about them.

 

[David Clapson]

Radical feminist groups used to argue for lesbian separatist communities. As far as I know, only one got off the ground, somewhere in the US. I saw a film about it. It disintegrated after male babies were born. (I can't remember how the mothers got pregnant, but the biological fathers never lived in the community.)

 

[Raheem]

Go on then....

I'm not actually sure that ideas are the issue. I think violence against women isn't an under-discussed topic at an academic, policy or campaigning level, and there's enough that remains to be achieved or defended to be going on with.

At the moment, there's a window for raising the profile of women's safety in public places, which ought to be taken advantage of, which can be done in the usual ways, even if they are limited for a lot of people, particularly in a lockdown.

But I don't especially think we're suddenly at a juncture where a radical reappraisal of ways and means is needed. And, having been forced by my OH to look at Twitter this evening, I think the idea that what is needed right now is for men to come forward with their ideas and thoughts may be little misguided.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'm not actually sure that ideas are the issue. I think violence against women isn't an under-discussed topic at an academic, policy or campaigning level, and there's enough that remains to be achieved or defended to be going on with.

At the moment, there's a window for raising the profile of women's safety in public places, which ought to be taken advantage of, which can be done in the usual ways, even if they are limited for a lot of people, particularly in a lockdown.

But I don't especially think we're suddenly at a juncture where a radical reappraisal of ways and means is needed. And, having been forced by my OH to look at Twitter this evening, I think the idea that what is needed right now is for men to come forward with their ideas and thoughts may be little misguided.

Not come forward. As yiu imply, there’s quite enough of that already, we don’t need need more men stepping forward

Just talk, properly, amongst yourselves.

I repeat: when was the last time you talked about this stuff.... And when was the last time you talked about this with a man? How often have you really discussed all this stuff with men?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I'm not actually sure that ideas are the issue. I think violence against women isn't an under-discussed topic at an academic, policy or campaigning level, and there's enough that remains to be achieved or defended to be going on with.

At the moment, there's a window for raising the profile of women's safety in public places, which ought to be taken advantage of, which can be done in the usual ways, even if they are limited for a lot of people, particularly in a lockdown.

But I don't especially think we're suddenly at a juncture where a radical reappraisal of ways and means is needed. And, having been forced by my OH to look at Twitter this evening, I think the idea that what is needed right now is for men to come forward with their ideas and thoughts may be little misguided.

I agree that we need to address the practicalities of women’s safety in public places. We also need to be thinking about women’s safety at home too.

We need to get to a point where “women’s safety” doesn’t need to be flagged up for discussion and policy making.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I have worked in two schools. At the first school, 4 15 year old boys were prosecuted, permanently excluded and placed on the sex offenders list for forcing a 13 year old girl with learning difficulties to give them oral sex. They filmed it on their phones and uploaded it onto social media. The boys were popular and I managed to intercept a petition that some pupils were trying to print out to protest against the school excluding them. The poor girl was being judged for it and it was felt the boys were being unfairly treated for it, despite them making and publishing child pornography and raping a child. I had not realised until then how insidious this shit is - it was a proper wake up call.
In the next school, an all boys Catholic school, the culture of misogyny was ingrained, even amongst the teachers. The headmaster's response to endless catcalling and harrassment of female staff was to order the boys to stop calling female staff 'Miss' and address them as 'Madam' instead. To his credit, one teacher pulled some strings at his alma mater and called in Laura Bates of Everyday Sexism to give a talk to both the boys and the staff. She didn't pull her punches and shocked many with descriptions of violent pornography, below the line comments and obscenities and threats that women receive online and in real life, but the Q&A session afterwards revealed how little the boys were taking in - eg one boy stated that all women who dressed up were prostitutes. I was a librarian there, so I had the chance to fill the library with feminist and radical texts before I left (under a bit of a cloud) - not even one teacher showed an interest in using any of these books in lessons at any point but were happy to take publicity photos of Bates meeting senior staff in front of the display I did of these texts for the occasion. Still, at least the books were still there and the boys and staff were exposed to a different view on things - I fear that things will change slowly by process of attrition but it's not soon enough, which is why we need to take tragedies like as an opportunity to widen the discourse and make radical change more possible.

This is so grim.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

The following probs needs to be spoilered and CWed - gruesome detail of sexual violence and ingrained misogyny in schools:
I have worked in two schools. At the first school, 4 15 year old boys were prosecuted, permanently excluded and placed on the sex offenders list for forcing a 13 year old girl with learning difficulties to give them oral sex. They filmed it on their phones and uploaded it onto social media. The boys were popular and I managed to intercept a petition that some pupils were trying to print out to protest against the school excluding them. The poor girl was being judged for it and it was felt the boys were being unfairly treated for it, despite them making and publishing child pornography and raping a child. I had not realised until then how insidious this shit is - it was a proper wake up call.
In the next school, an all boys Catholic school, the culture of misogyny was ingrained, even amongst the teachers. The headmaster's response to endless catcalling and harrassment of female staff was to order the boys to stop calling female staff 'Miss' and address them as 'Madam' instead. To his credit, one teacher pulled some strings at his alma mater and called in Laura Bates of Everyday Sexism to give a talk to both the boys and the staff. She didn't pull her punches and shocked many with descriptions of violent pornography, below the line comments and obscenities and threats that women receive online and in real life, but the Q&A session afterwards revealed how little the boys were taking in - eg one boy stated that all women who dressed up were prostitutes. I was a librarian there, so I had the chance to fill the library with feminist and radical texts before I left (under a bit of a cloud) - not even one teacher showed an interest in using any of these books in lessons at any point but were happy to take publicity photos of Bates meeting senior staff in front of the display I did of these texts for the occasion. Still, at least the books were still there and the boys and staff were exposed to a different view on things - I fear that things will change slowly by process of attrition but it's not soon enough, which is why we need to take tragedies like as an opportunity to widen the discourse and make radical change more possible.

Oh god that's just fucking infuriating and saddening at the same time.
I'm worrying now that I just don't see it. that i'm making an unconscious decision to ignore possible signs just because I don't want to think that it is possible.

Actually I will try to actively spot and investigate possible problems. (It's not that I wasn't trying to spot problems it's just maybe I wasn't doing enough)
I'm now thinking of a conversation I had with a student where I was not probably not trying hard enough before the conversation.
had a male student who spent a lot of time talking with a female student. to me it looked like both of them were equally skiving off a bit with maybe a hint of flirtation.
I had a very enlightening conversation with the female student who let me know that she found the male student to be a bit of a pain. Nothing terrible but I got the impression that she was giving him the time of day more because telling him to piss off would cause more annoyance than just doing the equivalent of nodding and smiling.
Though she did basically tell these other two guys to fuck right off as they were much more... surley. Glad to see the back of them for a lot of reasons.
Once again it goes to show what a fucking social tightrope it is that women have to walk on.

 

[Orang Utan]

This is so grim.

Have spoilered it in case it's too much for some