Curfew For Men

[killer b]

It’s perfectly possible to intervene without violence - have done it twice in clubs where fellas have got too - once telling the promoter what was going on and them getting security to eject them and once in that shitpit Fabric where a few of us surrounded a dickhead and danced him away from the woman he was harassing

The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.

I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?

 

[cyril_smear]

I have seen this hashtagged on Twitter as a response to the murder of Sarah Everard.

Collective punishment; illegal under international law.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I think part of it is just trying to change the culture. Have decency guides posted up everywhere.
Don't make it unspoken social rules but explicit codes of conduct that everyone has to agree to to enter.
It might be a start. It's not much but at least it is sayinging people need to change not just that people won't change so need to be policed more.

 

[Treacle Toes]

One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?

 

[oli_1_uk]

I'm a bit cynical about how much you really want to find a solution.

No worries it's good to be cynical, I'd rather see a society where people don't get attacked but that's just not the reality, it's the same with children being able to walk the streets with no worries but sadly you have paedophiles out there, it's not about not wanting to find a solution but not wanting to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut

 

[Badgers]

I think with Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson and his Cabinet of cunts we can be certain this is front and centre of their priorities.

 

[Orang Utan]

Collective punishment; illegal under international law.

Used in schools all of the time mind

 

[purenarcotic]

The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.

I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?

We were part of the good night out campaign; we trained a few bars and clubs. Some of it was about implementing measures which would try and ensure better responses from staff so women would feel more comfortable to report incidents, some was about trying to change attitudes of ‘it’s just a laugh / banter / not my business’ so that staff would proactively intervene when they saw something going on. Part of the reason why it’s so prolific is because they know they can get away with it. So creating an environment which makes that harder is definitely something.

 

[cyril_smear]

At the very least, we could light certain thoroughfares better. Locally, in Leeds, we have a ginnel that goes from an area with a lot of pubs to an area with a lot of student housing and there have been a large number of assaults.
it’s got this bad:

Lived in Leeds all my life and never heard of it.

 

[Clair De Lune]

This is an important bit imo. The way some men (quite a lot actually ...in work, at the pub, with friends or in sports teams etc) change completely when there are no women about. This is something common which men can call out before it escalates. Why are you talking differently now your wife/girlfriend isn't here? To challenge the attitude that loving your wife and having respect for her as a human being means you're pussy whipped. Because guys get swept up in this and fall into line with the group even if they secretly hate the laddish 'locker room' chat. It's really creepy to overhear this shit as a woman. To hear 'nice guys' change their tone and act like a boys club makes us feel like the nice guy shit is an act to get us into bed, convince us to get married or have your children and leach off our kindness and naivety. Ugh.

Just to add to this...this us and them attitude and the suppression of boys emotions, sensitivity and vulerability starts very young. I see it in my own son how if he's gaming and chatting to mates online his tone towards me changes a little...because it's embarrassing to admit I love and respect my mam in front of mates. This is where it starts and I think if we don't talk to our sons about it now that's when problems could arise later. I think it needs to be a family wide conversation. I also think this is the time teaching respect is very important... we're not your slaves, don't take the piss and don't think it's ok to create a load of mess for a woman to clean up. Don't be so keen to fit in with your mates that you join in with sexist chat, exclude girls and other us.
I'm a single mam but I'd hope that if my son's dad were around he wouldn't stand for the 'mam will clear that up, not my responsibility' attitude and would encourage talking to your mum and sister with respect.

 

[cyril_smear]

Used in schools all of the time mind

The kids need to get unionised.

 

[Athos]

No worries it's good to be cynical, I'd rather see a society where people don't get attacked but that's just not the reality, it's the same with children being able to walk the streets with no worries but sadly you have paedophiles out there, it's not about not wanting to find a solution but not wanting to use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut

A limited time and space which men are allowed to enter as long as they agree not to make unsolicited approaches to women is hardly a sledgehammer ffs!

 

[Orang Utan]

The last few times I've been out dancing with a crew, I've spent sometimes substantial portions of the night physically placing myself between women in our group and various frotting men. Which is ok as a in the moment solution, but doesn't feel like it's anything more than that, and it's a culture that needs to be built into the club night.

I know there was talk a while back about Safe Spaces policies in clubs, has anyone had much experience of going to a club where this is proactively promoted? And not just in a 'women speak to the bouncers' way, but in a 'men, these are your responsibilities' way?

I have but the onus did seem to be on anyone suffering harassment to report it to promoters or security.
The last time I went to Fabric there were some very firm notices up aimed towards the perpetrators saying that if you get caught harassing anyone ‘you will be dealt with very severely and then handed to the police’ which doesn’t take much reading between the lines

 

[Orang Utan]

Lived in Leeds all my life and never heard of it.

Can’t exist then can it

 

[oli_1_uk]

I think part of it is just trying to change the culture. Have decency guides posted up everywhere.
Don't make it unspoken social rules but explicit codes of conduct that everyone has to agree to to enter.
It might be a start. It's not much but at least it is sayinging people need to change not just that people won't change so need to be policed more.

I agree, maybe something along the lines of a government campaign to highlight the issue more and clubs having more responsibility to keep people safe, those kind of things would be more beneficial than draconian curfew measures.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Spoiler: I go off on a tangent about how you might use technology to police behaviour

I could imagine ways to make it easier to police bad behaviour.
Often you already have to scan in to get into a venue.
I can imagine having an app that sets you see the pictures of people who have been near you in the venue and allowed you to report inappropriate behaviour.
That would then feedback to staff who can help deal with it.

 

[purenarcotic]

The approach in itself isn’t so much the issue. People go out, they chat, they meet others in the smoking area, whatever. The issue is respecting the ‘no thank you’ - the persisting when ‘no’ has been said, the getting angry, calling them a bitch, the having to make up a fake boyfriend etc etc. I am immensely antisocial so I get narked being approached on my night out by anybody I don’t know, I don’t want to talk shit with a stranger. But when a man does it, I am instantly on edge and I can feel the anger rising as I get ready for the fight. No really does mean no. I really struggle to understand why that is such a hard concept.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

The approach in itself isn’t so much the issue. People go out, they chat, they meet others in the smoking area, whatever. The issue is respecting the ‘no thank you’ - the persisting when ‘no’ has been said, the getting angry, calling them a bitch, the having to make up a fake boyfriend etc etc. I am immensely antisocial so I get narked being approached on my night out by anybody I don’t know, I don’t want to talk shit with a stranger. But when a man does it, I am instantly on edge and I can feel the anger rising as I get ready for the fight. No really does mean no. I really struggle to understand why that is such a hard concept.

Endless self delusions and fragile egos.
That and all the stuff that has already been said about the culture around being out.

 

[purenarcotic]

Endless self delusions and fragile egos.
That and all the stuff that has already been said about the culture around being out.

Yes it was a bit rhetorical, I understand how the patriarchy works thanks.

 

[Athos]

The approach in itself isn’t so much the issue. People go out, they chat, they meet others in the smoking area, whatever. The issue is respecting the ‘no thank you’ - the persisting when ‘no’ has been said, the getting angry, calling them a bitch, the having to make up a fake boyfriend etc etc. I am immensely antisocial so I get narked being approached on my night out by anybody I don’t know, I don’t want to talk shit with a stranger. But when a man does it, I am instantly on edge and I can feel the anger rising as I get ready for the fight. No really does mean no. I really struggle to understand why that is such a hard concept.

I've never got the persistence thing, anyway. I mean, quite apart from being unpleasant, is it worth the time an effort? How often do women who've clearly indicated they're not interested change their mind because they're badgered?. Or perhaps I'm being naive, and that happens a lot, which is worrying in iteslf.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Yes it was a bit rhetorical, I understand how the patriarchy works thanks.

I'm Sorry. Didn't mean it that way.

 

[marshall]

Can’t exist then can it

My daughter's at university in Leeds, she informs it certainly exists; but it's a relatively new piece of graffiti. Apparently.

 

[Orang Utan]

My daughter's at university in Leeds, she informs it certainly exists; but it's a relatively new piece of graffiti. Apparently.

I live very near it and avoid it myself - have avoided it since I was a teenager.

 

[killer b]

I have but the onus did seem to be on anyone suffering harassment to report it to promoters or security.
The last time I went to Fabric there were some very firm notices up aimed towards the perpetrators saying that if you get caught harassing anyone ‘you will be dealt with very severely and then handed to the police’ which doesn’t take much reading between the lines

I think there's probably some hesitancy to introduce and vigorously promote safe space type policies for fear of being thought of as killjoys - the name itself instantly brings to mind images of dour faced student activists etc - I guess one way we can make a difference is by trying to normalise these kinds of policies in the spaces we (in)frequent.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why can't we all just stand on our doorsteps and clap for Sarah Everard, like we did for Captain Tom Moore?

Some people will be as that is the way they will choose to have a vigil for Sarah and all the other murdered and abused women.

I am in favor of 'reclaiming the night', but I am not in favor of 'reclaiming' Clapham Common, which is supposed to be a 'safe space' for gay men.

It isn't being hijacked, nor does it belong to any one group. It's a public space.

You are clearly here to be controversial and provocative...do carry on with you list of silly statements.

 

[Athos]

I think there's probably some hesitancy to introduce and vigorously promote safe space type policies for fear of being thought of as killjoys - the name itself instantly brings to mind images of dour faced student activists etc - I guess one way we can make a difference is by trying to normalise these kinds of policies in the spaces we (in)frequent.

I think there's a big element of that. It just needs to become a normal party of not being a dick.

 

[krtek a houby]

One question I'm thinking with that approach is that how would it be policed? Men on 1 side of the room and women on the other? Also would there have to be a 3rd area for transgender people or can they choose which side they go on?

You've mentioned trans people a few times, now. Do you have a particular issue with them?

 

[killer b]

You've mentioned trans people a few times, now. Do you have a particular issue with them?

I think just not bothering is the thing tbh.

 

[cyril_smear]

Can’t exist then can it

All I can find online is one story.

I’m on multiple Facebook community groups for the Leeds area, and a few Leeds rhinos Facebook groups as well... never heard about this. If it was a thing the club would be all over it and making people aware of it.

 

[purenarcotic]

I've never got the persistence thing, anyway. I mean, quite apart from being unpleasant, is it worth the time an effort? How often do women who've clearly indicated they're not interested change their mind because they're badgered?. Or perhaps I'm being naive, and that happens a lot, which is worrying in iteslf.

I don’t know the stats (does anybody?) but I suppose it must work sometimes. And look, I get it, we’ve all been turned down and it’s a bit bruising. Maybe this is about being able to take failure, to accept not everyone likes you and that’s okay. We put a lot of effort into things for girls to like themselves as they are, perhaps we need to do more with boys so they don’t feel such a need to own others. Because they like themselves enough. I dunno.