Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

So exactly the opposite of what a lot of the media have been suggesting. The overall rate of death has increased by considerably more than the amount of official coronavirus deaths. The BBC in particular have been plugging the idea that the majority of deaths were people near the end of their lives anyway. I guess there could be a corresponding dip (or smaller raise given there will be coronavirus deaths anyway) later in the year if the virus runs out of easy targets but I doubt it'll be as big as that.
Yeah we're in a fog, information-wise, aren't we? When they report 'pre-existing underlying conditions', that could mean final-stage cancer or it could mean asthma. There are going to be all kinds of gruesome things to look out for this year, sadly. Survival rates for various other conditions are one.

Figures from Italy on potential sources of non-reported deaths and comparisons with expected death rates make for difficult reading. All we can really know for sure is that whatever the number is they're reporting now, the reality is to some unknown degree worse than that. :(
 
Purely anecdotal but I live on a major A road and there has been a big increase in ambulances haring past last few weeks, unsurprisingly, however the last few days has been quieter. I've only noticed 2 today so far. I would often notice 2 in half an hour recently. Maybe it's a good sign.
 
Purely anecdotal but I live on a major A road and there has been a big increase in ambulances haring past last few weeks, unsurprisingly, however the last few days has been quieter. I've only noticed 2 today so far. I would often notice 2 in half an hour recently. Maybe it's a good sign.
I've been trying to get up-to-date hospitalisation figures for the UK. Not as easy to do as for many other countries. But overall levels do appear to be coming down from a peak a few days ago. Alongside the dying :(, hopefully that is the result of a combination of discharges and a big reduction in new admissions.

If lockdown has worked, this week is when we should expect to see new cases reducing significantly. Big week.
 
Yeah we're in a fog, information-wise, aren't we? When they report 'pre-existing underlying conditions', that could mean final-stage cancer or it could mean asthma. There are going to be all kinds of gruesome things to look out for this year, sadly. Survival rates for various other conditions are one.

Figures from Italy on potential sources of non-reported deaths and comparisons with expected death rates make for difficult reading. All we can really know for sure is that whatever the number is they're reporting now, the reality is to some unknown degree worse than that. :(

I had a look at how many people in the UK have a pre-existing health condition a few weeks ago (or maybe days/months, who the fuck knows these days?) - it's somewhere from 15-24 million. I think depending on definition. That's for long-term conditions/chronic disease.
 
I had a look at how many people in the UK have a pre-existing health condition a few weeks ago (or maybe days/months, who the fuck knows these days?) - it's somewhere from 15-24 million. I think depending on definition. That's for long-term conditions/chronic disease.
It will include 'everyone over 80', for starters.
 
In terms of easing lockdown, when it might happen and the impact if we are watching elsewhere then the BBC is briefly reporting that Hokkaido may be experiencing the start of a second wave with the number of cases higher than at the beginning of the first wave with shut down only for a month...

It looks like Japan’s northern island of Hokkaido is starting to experience exactly what many epidemiologists had predicted; after the successful suppression of an initial outbreak, the relaxing of restrictions has led to a second wave.

Hokkaido was the first place in Japan to be hit badly by the virus. In mid-February the governor declared a state of emergency, schools were closed and people were urged to stay at home. The shutdown hit in the middle of the ski-season, the worst possible time. I was there myself at the beginning of March and the ski resorts were completely deserted. But it worked, and by the middle of March the infection rate had fallen to a handful of infections a day.

At the end of March schools re-opened and life in Hokkaido began to return to some sort of normality. But now just two weeks later a new state of emergency has been declared. By the end of last week new infections had climbed to between 15 and 20 a day which is higher than during the first wave in February. Schools have again been closed and people asked to stay at home.
 
I've been trying to get up-to-date hospitalisation figures for the UK. Not as easy to do as for many other countries. But overall levels do appear to be coming down from a peak a few days ago. Alongside the dying :(, hopefully that is the result of a combination of discharges and a big reduction in new admissions.

If lockdown has worked, this week is when we should expect to see new cases reducing significantly. Big week.

I couldnt say they are coming down yet. And I am wary of interpreting these figures in isolation, because the number of hospital deaths obvious affects the current numbers of hospitalised patients too, and this must be taken into account when looking at plateaus in hospital figures.

The intensive care figures have stopped being published in recent days, if that does not change soon then I am going to go nuts about being denied crucial data on a crucial week.

So I can only give the hospitalised figures at the moment, not ICU ones. And the hospitalisation data still lacks Northern Ireland figures. Also their own slide about this indicates that there is data missing from some hospitals for April 9th, so that bar should actually be higher than shown here.


Screenshot 2020-04-14 at 14.00.59.png


Screenshot 2020-04-14 at 14.06.05.png
 
Without wishing to downplay the ONS data at all (I intent to do quite the opposite once I've analysed it myself) there are a couple of things that should be kept in mind when you hear a phrase like 'highest week since records began'.

Crucially, when did records begin? It seems the system changed at some point, and so a BBC article about the ONS data says:

The 16,000 weekly deaths is the highest number seen since the ONS started publishing data in 2005 and tops the highest toll during the 2015 flu outbreak.

from One in five deaths now linked to coronavirus

So this is still terribly bad, but I still prefer to see it in context anyway. I expect that if I use older data that goes back further, I will currently be able to find flu epidemics that took a higher toll. But if I do this exercise, it certainly wont be to downplay this pandemic.

Later I will take my corrected hospital death figures (corrected to show date of death instead of date of reporting) and will compare this to the ONS data for that period to see how many extra deaths the ONS data is actually revealing.
 


Guardian reporting lock down could shrink GDP by 39%, unemployment up by 2 million, lots of new great depression articles in the media,

terrifying really, what would a new depression mean? bartering like in Argentina decade ago.
 
Regarding the ECDC guidelines, yes, there's superficial similarities to the "herd immunity" plan, but beyond them, stark differences that point to a fundamental difference in the underlying justifications. The ECDC emphasize that there should be a "strong focus" on testing and contact tracing throughout the epidemic, and take as their "baseline scenario" the maintenance of social distancing until a vaccine or other game changer's available. There's references to natural immunity and "cocooning" the vulnerable: but not as part of a deliberate policy goal to accelerate the epidemic to create "herd immunity". Abandoning testing and tracing and ignoring social distancing in order to engineer a fast peak and population-wide immunity appears different in kind.

That is the 8th edition of the ECDC rapid risk assessment. That one was written weeks after the old orthodox approach fell apart. You need to go back and look at earlier editions to see the evolution of the orthodox stance.

The sixth edition from March 12th, when things had started to shift, still contains stuff like this in its executive summary:

  • If resources or capacity are limited, rational approaches should be implemented to prioritise high-yield actions, which include: rational use of confirmatory testing, reducing contact tracing to focus only on high-yield contacts, rational use of PPE and hospitalisation and implementing rational criteria for de-isolation. Testing approaches should prioritise vulnerable populations, protection of social and healthcare institutions, including staff.
  • National surveillance systems should initially aim at rapidly detecting cases and assessing community transmission. As the epidemic progresses, surveillance should monitor the intensity, geographical spread and the impact of the epidemic on the population and healthcare systems and assess the effectiveness of measures in place. In circumstances with capacity shortages and strict implementation of social distancing measures, surveillance should focus on severe acute respiratory infections, sentinel surveillance in outpatient clinics or collection of data through telephone helplines.

But the clearest shift visible in the 6th edition (March 12th, so just after Italy locked down and just before the UK approachs last stand via herd immunity rhetoric) is the following paragraph, which as far as I know was a new addition that was not present in the 5th edition:

The evidence for the effectiveness of closing schools and workplaces, and cancelling mass gatherings is limited. However, one modelling study from China estimated that if a range of non-pharmaceutical interventions, including social distancing, had been conducted one week, two weeks, or three weeks earlier in the country, the number of COVID-19 cases could have been reduced by 66%, 86%, and 95%, respectively, together with significantly reducing the number of affected areas [72].

I havent spent time going back and reading the 5th or earlier editions, but the standard orthodox approach should be highly visible in those, and the evolution between 5th edition and 8th edition should demonstrate much of my point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cid
terrifying really, what would a new depression mean? bartering like in Argentina decade ago.

Big government, tax and spend, new deal, new consensus, possibly a new attitude towards how much we should work, and all sorts of things that probably should have been done after the financial crisis but were not. Expect these new realities to be blended in with the energy and climate situation, and the fact that neoliberalism and globalisation had already started coming off the tracks this century.
 
So this is still terribly bad, but I still prefer to see it in context anyway. I expect that if I use older data that goes back further, I will currently be able to find flu epidemics that took a higher toll. But if I do this exercise, it certainly wont be to downplay this pandemic.

OK I'm not going to have the time or the right data to do this properly, so here is something based on excess winter mortality instead. So wont be able to compare it like-for-like with the stuff in the latest ONS data, but it will still provide a little bit of broader context:


Screenshot 2020-04-14 at 14.39.38.png
 
Big government, tax and spend, new deal, new consensus, possibly a new attitude towards how much we should work, and all sorts of things that probably should have been done after the financial crisis but were not. Expect these new realities to be blended in with the energy and climate situation, and the fact that neoliberalism and globalisation had already started coming off the tracks this century.

very optimistic, so its a lot different than the GFC.
 
very optimistic, so its a lot different than the GFC.

Its a much bigger thing than the financial crisis, so I dont think they have the same options open to them. Therefore, even if I stripped the optimism and my own political beliefs out of what I said, there will still inevitably be very large changes, earthquakes on every front of politics and economics.
 
I've been reading all this bull from people on the right and the opposition leader about now not being the time to ask tough questions of the government's coronavirus approach and criticise.

Never heard so much rubbish in my life.
 
Sort of good news.

Nightingale largely empty as ICUs handle surge

Senior figures said 19 patients being treated at temporary Nightingale hospital over the weekend

Docklands facility designed to have 2,900 intensive care beds

Data seen by HSJ suggests London’s established hospitals have doubled their ICU capacity, and are so far coping with surge

Exclusive: Nightingale largely empty as ICUs handle surge
 
That is the 8th edition of the ECDC rapid risk assessment. That one was written weeks after the old orthodox approach fell apart. You need to go back and look at earlier editions to see the evolution of the orthodox stance.

The sixth edition from March 12th, when things had started to shift, still contains stuff like this in its executive summary:



But the clearest shift visible in the 6th edition (March 12th, so just after Italy locked down and just before the UK approachs last stand via herd immunity rhetoric) is the following paragraph, which as far as I know was a new addition that was not present in the 5th edition:



I havent spent time going back and reading the 5th or earlier editions, but the standard orthodox approach should be highly visible in those, and the evolution between 5th edition and 8th edition should demonstrate much of my point.
The first few editions don't appear that relevant (since so little was known about the virus at the time), but the 5th edition -- thanks for highlighting that -- is very interesting.

Throughout, it's driven by practical concerns, not dogma. Even in p.7's worst case "scenario four", which envisions overwhelmed healthcare systems, "The objective at this stage is still to mitigate the impact of the outbreak, decrease the burden on healthcare services, protect populations at risk of severe disease and reduce excess mortality." While it does recommend against universal systematic testing in scenarios three and four, this is purely on practical grounds, and as indicated by your quote, representative samples should still be taken. P.14's section on contact tracing is again dictated by practicality, and recommends ongoing tracing for healthcare workers and those who may expose vulnerable people to SARS-CoV-2. Most strikingly, social distancing is recommended throughout, as is consideration of a ban on mass gatherings in scenarios 3 and 4 (if containment's failed).

Britain ceased testing and tracing long before it was practically unfeasible. No attempt to track the disease's spread with representative samples was made. And crucially, the ECDC don't recommend abandoning containment as a deliberate choice, but when it's no longer practical. They were driven by what they considered possible: we were driven by a lethal, untested theory. Britain's approach looked superficially similar, but below the waterline, it was anything but.
 
Britain's approach looked superficially similar, but below the waterline, it was anything but.

My main point was that it is a good idea to compare versions of the ECDC document so that you can see the evolution of the orthodox thinking, and then compare that with what happened in the UK. And that such supra-national guidelines leave plenty of wiggle room for individual nations to adjust their measures to suit local circumstances. Those include capacity issues and issues about when things are 'no longer practical'. Also, note that something you quoted uses the word mitigate - thats the old language of pandemic plans and is entirely compatible with the UK approach before plans had to change around March 16th. Mitigate is the crap 'push the curve down a bit' plan, that falls well short of suppression. Your analysis seems to feature extremely favourable interpretations of these and other phrases and concepts when the ECDC uses them, in stark contrast to the interpretations you make in regard UK moves. Which misses the point of how most of the crap things the UK did were entirely compatible with the language and concepts enshrined in these guides, if we pay attention to the dates each edition were published and allow for the UK dragging its heels and being some days behind.

So no, it is not the case at all that the UK approach was only superficially similar looking. It was compatible with and patially a product of the same world as the ECDC documents represent. This is not the same as me claiming that the UK would get a special medal for being the 'best in class' when it came to how seriously it treated everything and what capacity it had to achieve in full everything that the ECDC docs recommend. Far from it, we were pretty crappy. Germany were much better on at least 2 fronts, testing and contact tracing, maybe more, but its still too early for me to really know how well they have done with infection control in hospitals and care homes. But both nations approaches were compatible with these docs and the existing orthodoxy. Because the orthodoxy allowed for countries with limited diagnostics capabilities, it advises them where to prioritise where they can, and we did a poor job with those priorities too, but its still the same universe of thinking.

You have to read between the lines a bit with documents like the ECDC ones. And you have to understand what triggers countries use to move to another phase of the long established plans. For example you mention that we abandoned various things before they became unfeasible, but I dont think you have considered how these feasibility assumptions are baked into national plans, in the same way certain triggers for moving to another phase are. Again I'm not defending the UK system on this, a lot of our plans werent granular enough, but there was usually some internal logic to them that was compatible with mainstream thinking on modern pandemic responses.

Here is an example from the ECDC 5th editions surveillance section, what should be done in scenario 2:

Case-based national surveillance and reporting should continue even in the face of increasing numbers of cases for as long as resources allow, at least until a clear description of the disease, severity spectrum and outcomes has been obtained.

The 'clear description of the disease' stuff is a perfect fit for the 'First few hundred (FF100)' clinical studies. And such studies are a big part of the initial 'containment' phase in UK plans, which is the phase where you actually try and test every case and hospitalise them.

I've also spoken before about how phase labelled 'contain' is often only really delay. I first learnt about this because it was one of the criticisms of the UK response to 2009 swine flu pandemic, that their contain phase should actually have been called a delay phase and communicated to the public as such. Well, such obfuscations were aline and well this time, and oh look, they are in the 5th edition of the ECDC doc too:

Containment measures intended to slow down the spread of the virus in the population are therefore extremely important as outlined below in the ‘Options for response’ and recent ECDC guidance documents

Scenario 1 describes a situation with multiple introductions and limited local transmission in the country. Despite the introductions there is no apparent sustained transmission (only second generation cases observed or transmission within sporadic contained clusters with known epidemiological links). In this situation, the objective is containment of the outbreak by blocking transmission opportunities, through early detection of imported and locally-transmitted COVID-19 cases in order to try to avoid or at least delay the spread of infection and the associated burden on healthcare systems. Delaying the start of local transmission will allow the current influenza season to end, freeing up some healthcare capacity. As of 2 March 2020, several EU/EEA countries had reported limited local transmission and were considered to be in this scenario.

That ECDC description of scenario 1 is not exactly a confident battle cry to genuinely contain and suppress the infection is it? It has failure, turning this into a delay rather than a contain phase, baked into it! And then more of the same into scenario 2:

In this situation, the objective remains to contain where practicable and otherwise slow down the transmission of the infection.

'Where practicable' is an example of just the sort of wiggle room that my point relies upon to be valid - this is where the action is, in phrases like that.

By scenario 3, we get the relatively feeble (compared to the lockdowns we actually ended up with) mitigation:

The objective at this stage is to mitigate the impact of the outbreak by decreasing the burden on healthcare systems and protect populations at risk of severe disease.

If you strip away the particular herd immunity rhetoric the UK used, scenario 3 was entirely compatible with our previous 'get the most vulnerable to stay at home but otherwise try to carry on' approach that was dead by March 16th. Likewise the final worst case end-game scenario 4:

The objective at this stage is still to mitigate the impact of the outbreak, decrease the burden on healthcare services, protect populations at risk of severe disease and reduce excess mortality.

Mitigate is not suppress, it is not the strong measures you are horrified we werent going to do, its the weak stuff Johnson originally favoured (that would still have featured some stronger stuff eventually, but quite a bit later, and for less time).
 
And yes it is true that when we get onto subsequent sections where it describes options for response in each of the scenarios(phases), the UK falls well short on all sorts of best practices and recommendations. For example in the testing section they are recommending various things we didnt do, including rolling out capacity to a local lab level and having the special designated labs do additional confirmation of a proportion of samples taken by the less certified local labs.

But here are yet more examples where the suggested responses in the 5th edition of the ECDC document are really quite feeble and fall well short of what even the UK ended having to do later. So again, further evidence that our original plan was quite in tune with ECDC thinking, and further examples of having to pay close attention to some of the language used in order to judge how these concepts really stack up to original UK plans.

School and day care measures or closure
Evidence originating from seasonal and pandemic influenza modelling studies have shown that proactive school closures before the peak of influenza virus activity have had a positive impact in reducing local transmission and delaying the peak of the influenza activity [60]. COVID-19 does not appear to cause important illness or severity in children; however, it is not known if children play an important role in transmission of the virus. Therefore, proactive school closures to reduce the transmission of COVID-19 should be carefully considered on a case-by-case assessment, weigh the expected impact of the epidemic against the adverse effects of such closures on the community. If influenza is circulating in the community, proactive school closures may be considered to reduce the burden of influenza cases on healthcare systems, and thereby create capacity for managing cases of COVID-19 in scenarios 2 and 3. Before or instead of closures, health authorities should also plan to reduce transmission opportunities within schools, while children continue to attend with other measures, which may include smaller school groups, increasing physical distance of children in the class, promotion of washing of hands and outdoor classes. In the event of illness, strict isolation of sick children and staff at home or healthcare facilities is advisable in all the scenarios.

During scenarios 1 and 2, the cancellation of mass gatherings in the EU/EEA may be justified in exceptional cases (e.g. large conferences with a significant number of participants from an affected area).

Data originating from seasonal and pandemic influenza models indicate that during the mitigation phase, cancellations of mass gatherings before the peak of epidemics or pandemics may reduce virus transmission; the cancellation of mass gatherings during the scenarios 3 and 4 is therefore recommended.

Due to the significant secondary effects (social, economic, etc.) of social distancing measures, the decision on their application should be based on a case-by-case risk assessment, depending on the impact of the epidemic and the local epidemiological situation

Travellers who develop acute respiratory symptoms within 14 days of returning from areas with ongoing local transmission should be advised to seek immediate medical attention, ideally by phone first, and indicate their travel history to the healthcare specialist.

Although WHO considers that the comprehensive measures taken by local authorities in China, which included severe travel restrictions have had a delaying effect on the epidemic within China and internationally, in general, travel restrictions at international borders or within national borders are neither efficient nor effective against outbreaks of respiratory disease, unless they can be implemented comprehensively. During the 2009 influenza pandemic, such comprehensive measures were shown to be feasible and effective only on isolated, small island countries.

Modelling work by ECDC has assessed the effectiveness of entry screening in detecting travellers infected with COVID-19 to be low.

If I now go and compare some of those sections from the 5th edition with the 6th edition and later editions still, I'm pretty sure we will see the tune changing in those just like we saw it changing in the UK. But dont worry, I've already quoted too much again, so I wont actually make that comparison right now, I will go back to leaving this subject alone.
 
Last edited:
By the way, there is another way we can judge what the UKs original stance might have ended up looking like in terms of how long the first wave would have lasted and when it might have peaked. Look at what timescales they were giving us when they started to describe the original plan. So I'm talking about March 12th, rather than March 16th when they had to change after the weekend of doom for 'herd immunity'.

At the time I fixated on Vallance saying the UK was 4 weeks behind Italy (when it was really 2). But he said something else at the same time, that may seem even more bizarre given the actual timing we are hoping our peak has now:

  • Vallance said that the outbreak in the UK could be about four weeks behind the outbreak in Italy.
  • Vallance said the peak of the epidemic in the UK was “something like 10 to 14 weeks away”
from 12 Mar 2020 19:06

The way to make sense of that crazy timing suggestion of the peak is to compare original modelling based on the mitigation approach that was originally envisaged, with the new 'lockdown/sort of suppression' model that Imperial came out with on the 16th. The date of peak around now that we are experiencing (hopefully) and the 'something like 10 to 14 weeks away' do seem to be represented fairly well.

Mitigation, lets perhaps assume the blue curve was similar to their original plan a.

Screenshot 2020-04-15 at 02.15.25.png

Suppression, where the hope is that our epidemic will this month follow the same sort of trend as the green line.

Screenshot 2020-04-12 at 22.14.44.png
It is also somewhat plausible to consider that at some stage they might have been hoping to get away with something that went further than the blue mitigate option, but not as far as the green suppress option. eg perhaps only involving temporary school closures (eg extending their holidays), an option that might therefore have resembled the orange option on the suppress graph.

I hope my point is clear. That if anyone is scratching their head about certain timing pronouncements about the epidemic wave just over a month ago, compared with the timing that has been suggested to us more recently, there are clues in the modelling of different policies. And once we have tested the model against the real data we'll get from this horrible April, we might also be able to figure out quite how bad it would have been if the original plan had been adhered to. And we can look at things like how much NHS surge capacity they created in recent weeks, and how much was actually needed, and see how that compares to the models for plans old and new too.
 
I'm certainly not praising the early ECDC response elbows : as I agreed weeks ago, countries throughout the West were complacent about a SARS virus and their citizens have paid the price. I'm just seeing different kinds of failure at work. In not emulating the fast, aggressive exclusion and suppression measures of several Asian countries, the ECDC can be accused of negligence.

By contrast Whitehall's plan, even if most of it currently has to be inferred from circumstantial evidence, appears to have been something else: after "delay," deliberately facilitating viral spread to achieve a rapid peak, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of deaths, in order to keep the economy moving and, to be charitable, on the assumption that a "second wave" would be even worse. If that's what they did, it goes beyond negligence.

I hope that the inferences are wrong, they didn't intend any such thing, and were simply implementing a particularly botched version of the ECDC plan that they explained abysmally, I truly do.
 
All the stats have become a fog to me.
However I am curious about the stats regarding those hospitalised with the virus, get treated and then get through it and are discharged.
Also any stats for those at home identified with the virus who recover, verses those identified who die in situ (like in care homes).
On a personal level it would influence any future decision as to whether to go to hospital.
The Excel facility frankly makes me shudder.
 
Buddy Bradley said:
Starmer interviewed on the BBC this morning was the first politician I've seen basically saying, "Clapping every week is all very well, but what we should be doing is paying these people more and fundamentally changing the way we think about what essential work is."

So he's actually said something!! :eek:

"Well done boy, but you must try much harder. See me after class!" ;) :p
 
Back
Top Bottom