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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

Aye, I'm wary but at current status I can only see a lockdown being of any use if it stops the NHS imploding. Its certainly far to late (by 3-4 weeks) to stop Omicron spreading like wildfire so shutting the gates now does very little aside from make people feel a bit better at the cost of another X weeks of isolation at the darkest time of year.

After 2 years and 3 boosts if we're not able to manage then we're in deep shit. I'm in one of the vulnerable groups but at this point I just want us to start dealing with Covid being resident in the population, its not going away but we're protected as we can be by now. I'll maintain facemask discipline and distancing, hope that others do the same, but I just want to live my life again.
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Janel Comaeu @VeryBadLlama Dec 25
"What if I told you that "learning to live with covid" means "accepting that some degree of covid precautions are just part of life now" and not "fuck it, covid is inevitable, let's go back to freely coughing on strangers" "
"we "learned to live with" typhoid by creating permanent sanitation regulations, not by deciding that losing a kid or two was a small price to pay for the freedom to cook with dirty poop-fingers"
 
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How else would you expect a rich cossetted Randist to respond to the question of freedom and help businesses (be it ever so short lived) vs help for public services and civic responsibility?
 
So what is your point, kenny g? It's quite clear you've got one, I'm just not exactly sure what it is.
The very expression "junior doctor" is archaic as is the the similar expression "junior barrister" - it is an extension of the public school fag system where learners are subjected to substantially lower wages, and longer work times whilst doing all the heavy lifting. Once someone reaches the exalted heights of the consultant they are able in the NHS system to take on two or three days a week of private practice or devote these additional days to non work activities. The changes in pension rules has meant that they have a clear financial advantage in working less hours so have that age old excuse , "my accountant has told me to do it."

This is all a result of the NHS having to be set up with the DR's in the driving seat. There needs to be a root and branch reform with increased wages for those actually doing the basic work aligned with full 5 day contracts for senior staff. Private health care should be subject to a 40% or plus VAT levy.
 
The very expression "junior doctor" is archaic as is the the similar expression "junior barrister" - it is an extension of the public school fag system where learners are subjected to substantially lower wages, and longer work times whilst doing all the heavy lifting. Once someone reaches the exalted heights of the consultant they are able in the NHS system to take on two or three days a week of private practice or devote these additional days to non work activities. The changes in pension rules has meant that they have a clear financial advantage in working less hours so have that age old excuse , "my accountant has told me to do it."

This is all a result of the NHS having to be set up with the DR's in the driving seat. There needs to be a root and branch reform with increased wages for those actually doing the basic work aligned with full 5 day contracts for senior staff. Private health care should be subject to a 40% or plus VAT levy.
If you want to discuss NHS reforms, maybe start another thread rather than cluttering up this one?
 
If you want to discuss NHS reforms, maybe start another thread rather than cluttering up this one?
You asked for the explanation. Perhaps a 1499 page thread is not the best place to look for de-cluttering? But as you were..
 
I don't know why but I'm genuinely shocked that the government is doing absolutely nothing.
Bear in mind this is the same PM who single handledly forced the schools to open after last years christmas holidays.
Managing to keep them open for a single day.
A single day of every kid in the country mixing after the holidays that probably cost us an extra several weeks of lockdown and fuck knows how many lives.

A century after WW! we're still being led by clueless Eton donkeys.
 
Bear in mind this is the same PM who single handledly forced the schools to open after last years christmas holidays.
Managing to keep them open for a single day.
A single day of every kid in the country mixing after the holidays that probably cost us an extra several weeks of lockdown and fuck knows how many lives.

A century after WW! we're still being led by clueless Eton donkeys.

Bear in mind this is the same PM who single handledly forced the schools to open after last years christmas holidays.
Managing to keep them open for a single day.
A single day of every kid in the country mixing after the holidays that probably cost us an extra several weeks of lockdown and fuck knows how many lives.

A century after WW! we're still being led by clueless Eton donkeys.
Presumably the 0.0001% of U75 readers who are planning to vote Tory and are Johnson believers were swayed by your comment.
 
Balloux - "I believe it is time to give in soon"




Let me describe some of the ways that this is slippery bullshit.

The idea that he gets to announce that covid will become endemic, at this stage, is a joke. Because since quite early on it was basically inevitable. Only a handful of countries went for zero covid, and only for a certain length of time. Thats not what an attempt to eradicate the virus looks like, and most zero covid stuff was not really about zero, it was about minimising the number of infections until vaccination uptake reached a certain level.

And the UK never attempted to push cases down to nothing. After nasty waves forced it to take action, it kept measures in place for long enough to push numbers down enough that it would take time for the virus to bounce back. And it didnt even bother doing that with the Delta wave, so its a mystery to me as to why Balloux thinks that the Omicron wave is now the right moment to declare some kind of surrender, could have done that 6 months ago!

I dont know what people who like that shit think it actually has to offer them. Are declarations of this sort going to magically mean that we can rely on fighting the pandemic on the medical front only in future? Thats always been the end game and the preference of the establishment, but they cannot make it so with words. And they've been trying to make it so for ages already, there is nothing new to see here. Its a gradual process with accumulated gains made on the immunity front (via vaccines and prior infections) and more treatments becoming available, and via a chunk of the most susceptible already having fallen victim to the virus. And when the virus finds ways to spread more effectively, or bypass some immunity, we end up with situations like this Omicron wave where it takes time to find out just how much of a setback this is.

So I ask again, what difference does this surrender mean to learning to live with covid as a country? On an individual basis there are obvious potential differences for those who have already caught the virus at least once, attitudes towards trying to avoid the virus are bound to change under such circumstances. But in terms of the country living with the virus without heavy restrictions on our lives, thats always going to be a numbers game because a certain level of pressure on healthcare will make any regime blink. Throwing your hands in the air and giving up does nothing to eliminate that possibility, and if everyone does that then it makes further interventions far more likely, so be careful what you wish for. Part of the core numbers game still involves the sheer number of people infected at any one time, and we arent quite at a stage where attention to that can be safely lost in the way Balloux is perhaps hinting at.

So for now if we want to live in relatively normality with the virus then we have to pay attention to all the factors that affect that fundamental health care equation, including the number of people catching it. One of the problems with this country is that the establishment doesnt seem interested in doing some things properly, so more ends up having to be done on other fronts under emergency conditions. Hospital infections amplify the waves and make them a heavier burden in many ways. But we still fail to do some of the basics on this front, such as upgrading mask standards for health care workers. The effort put into improving the situation with schools, in terms of both levels of infection and disruption has been pathetic. Failures on these fronts make it more likely that non-pharmaceutical interventions end up still being required. By getting vaccinated people are helping with the medical side of the equation, but this other stuff is important too.

The 'way out' of this pandemic still seems reasonably clear. An evolving picture of immunity and hospitalisation risk, and the authorities fiddling with health capacity and trying to find all sorts of ways to treat a chunk of people that would previously have ended up in hospital at home instead. Once they are more confident on that front, they will want to reduce other sorts of disruption to our lives by scaling back testing and isolation, trying to reach a point where being infected doesnt have quite so many consequences, including consequences for the workforce. Timescales are unclear to me, how this Omicron wave in winter turns out will contain some big clues, building on the messy picture of 'learning to live with Delta in summer'. So I expect I'll have more to say on this throughout January.

His 'pretending we are in control' stuff is weird framing too. There are human tendencies towards such things but this country never really pretended to be in control, rather it just found itself in periods where there was no choice but to exert some crude control over certain things, whilst leaving other fronts in a mess. We've never even attempted to have much control over the virus mutation picture either, preferring to allow conditions at home and abroad to come about which make the pace of change of this virus even faster, via large numbers of ongoing infections. And when it comes to civilisations pretending to be in the driving seat when they are not, he seems to have managed to allude to this whilst at the same time issuing a declaration and a statement of intent that is in itself a demonstration of the very same phenomenon. We lost control and/or certain agendas didnt like the control methods, so lets pretend it was unavoidable and for the best, why fight the inevitable, hey hey do you like the sound of my arse trumpet?
 
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Expect to be knocked down for saying this but I think this is probably the correct decision. Leave it to people to make their own risk assessments allied with mass testing. After almost two years we know where we are with the virus and it is time for the state to take a back seat in terms of social control.
Own decisions 1: some people go out on NYE, pubs are fairly full, no social distancing. Significant number of those people get infected and then pass it on (with additional impact on the NHS).

Own decisions 2: some people don't go to pubs, large house parties etc. Don't get it or pass it on.

What's the difference between 1 and 2? Is it some people making the wrong decision, the wrong 'risk assessment'? Well, perhaps, in a literal sense it is.
But it's the government that decides whether option 1 is an option at all. It's the government that doesn't fund sick pay or further furloughs. This is public health, it's the government that sets the context in which individual choices take place.
 
The very expression "junior doctor" is archaic as is the the similar expression "junior barrister" - it is an extension of the public school fag system where learners are subjected to substantially lower wages, and longer work times whilst doing all the heavy lifting. Once someone reaches the exalted heights of the consultant they are able in the NHS system to take on two or three days a week of private practice or devote these additional days to non work activities. The changes in pension rules has meant that they have a clear financial advantage in working less hours so have that age old excuse , "my accountant has told me to do it."

This is all a result of the NHS having to be set up with the DR's in the driving seat. There needs to be a root and branch reform with increased wages for those actually doing the basic work aligned with full 5 day contracts for senior staff. Private health care should be subject to a 40% or plus VAT levy.
Barristers tend not to be paid wages, as they’re generally self-employed, you probably mean lawyers :)

I don’t see what’s wrong with people working part-time, mandating a 5 day week would be indirect discrimination for age and sex at the very least.

I don’t know enough about the NHS pension scheme these days as it’s been a while since I’ve done an AW8 or a SD55, or indeed spoken to their office in Blackpool. Good to know there’s an expert here.
 
Unless it leads to another long-term, full blown lockdown two weeks or a month from now.

Which I would put cash money on at this point.
Absolutely this. The measures needed at the moment might be a funded circuit breaker, more WFH, temp (funded) closure of hospitality settings, maybe a delayed return for colleges and universities - perhaps some mixture of these as defined by experts to help the NHS get through the next few weeks. That's what it's about and that's what the loons in the tory party are frothing about. If the sheer number of cases pushes up the number of admissions, we'll need more than that.
 
Balloux - "I believe it is time to give in soon"



Quite the knob 'ead from what I've seen of this bloke. It's all well and good saying 'oh let's give in' but are the sort of ghouls that cheer him on going to support what's required to live with a virus like this? Mass investment in health care, more work from home, mitigations in schools, the work place and shops, funding of mass testing and so on? Further, are we going to accept around 50000 deaths a year and people getting strokes, kidney failure, millions with ME like symptoms and people getting limbs hacked off from an infectious disease just so we can go for £6 pints and £10 fry ups?

It just seems to be more 'ooh look at me I'm so controversial and contrarian' from him and his ilk.
 
Let me describe some of the ways that this is slippery bullshit.

The idea that he gets to announce that covid will become endemic, at this stage, is a joke. Because since quite early on it was basically inevitable. Only a handful of countries went for zero covid, and only for a certain length of time. Thats not what an attempt to eradicate the virus looks like, and most zero covid stuff was not really about zero, it was about minimising the number of infections until vaccination uptake reached a certain level.

And the UK never attempted to push cases down to nothing. After nasty waves forced it to take action, it kept measures in place for long enough to push numbers down enough that it would take time for the virus to bounce back. And it didnt even bother doing that with the Delta wave, so its a mystery to me as to why Balloux thinks that the Omicron wave is now the right moment to declare some kind of surrender, could have done that 6 months ago!

I dont know what people who like that shit think it actually has to offer them. Are declarations of this sort going to magically mean that we can rely on fighting the pandemic on the medical front only in future? Thats always been the end game and the preference of the establishment, but they cannot make it so with words. And they've been trying to make it so for ages already, there is nothing new to see here. Its a gradual process with accumulated gains made on the immunity front (via vaccines and prior infections) and more treatments becoming available, and via a chunk of the most susceptible already having fallen victim to the virus. And when the virus finds ways to spread more effectively, or bypass some immunity, we end up with situations like this Omicron wave where it takes time to find out just how much of a setback this is.

So I ask again, what difference does this surrender mean to learning to live with covid as a country? On an individual basis there are obvious potential differences for those who have already caught the virus at least once, attitudes towards trying to avoid the virus are bound to change under such circumstances. But in terms of the country living with the virus without heavy restrictions on our lives, thats always going to be a numbers game because a certain level of pressure on healthcare will make any regime blink. Throwing your hands in the air and giving up does nothing to eliminate that possibility, and if everyone does that then it makes further interventions far more likely, so be careful what you wish for. Part of the core numbers game still involves the sheer number of people infected at any one time, and we arent quite at a stage where attention to that can be safely lost in the way Balloux is perhaps hinting at.

So for now if we want to live in relatively normality with the virus then we have to pay attention to all the factors that affect that fundamental health care equation, including the number of people catching it. One of the problems with this country is that the establishment doesnt seem interested in doing some things properly, so more ends up having to be done on other fronts under emergency conditions. Hospital infections amplify the waves and make them a heavier burden in many ways. But we still fail to do some of the basics on this front, such as upgrading mask standards for health care workers. The effort put into improving the situation with schools, in terms of both levels of infection and disruption has been pathetic. Failures on these fronts make it more likely that non-pharmaceutical interventions end up still being required. By getting vaccinated people are helping with the medical side of the equation, but this other stuff is important too.

The 'way out' of this pandemic still seems reasonably clear. An evolving picture of immunity and hospitalisation risk, and the authorities fiddling with health capacity and trying to find all sorts of ways to treat a chunk of people that would previously have ended up in hospital at home instead. Once they are more confident on that front, they will want to reduce other sorts of disruption to our lives by scaling back testing and isolation, trying to reach a point where being infected doesnt have quite so many consequences, including consequences for the workforce. Timescales are unclear to me, how this Omicron wave in winter turns out will contain some big clues, building on the messy picture of 'learning to live with Delta in summer'. So I expect I'll have more to say on this throughout January.

His 'pretending we are in control' stuff is weird framing too. There are human tendencies towards such things but this country never really pretended to be in control, rather it just found itself in periods where there was no choice but to exert some crude control over certain things, whilst leaving other fronts in a mess. We've never even attempted to have much control over the virus mutation picture either, preferring to allow conditions at home and abroad to come about which make the pace of change of this virus even faster, via large numbers of ongoing infections. And when it comes to civilisations pretending to be in the driving seat when they are not, he seems to have managed to allude to this whilst at the same time issuing a declaration and a statement of intent that is in itself a demonstration of the very same phenomenon. We lost control and/or certain agendas didnt like the control methods, so lets pretend it was unavoidable and for the best, why fight the inevitable, hey hey do you like the sound of my arse trumpet?
I didn't see this post before I made mine about him. I've gotta say, you've been so bloody helpful to read throughout all this and I'm really grateful for your posts. You've been doing a stellar service 👍
 
Aye, I'm wary but at current status I can only see a lockdown being of any use if it stops the NHS imploding. Its certainly far to late (by 3-4 weeks) to stop Omicron spreading like wildfire so shutting the gates now does very little aside from make people feel a bit better at the cost of another X weeks of isolation at the darkest time of year.

After 2 years and 3 boosts if we're not able to manage then we're in deep shit. I'm in one of the vulnerable groups but at this point I just want us to start dealing with Covid being resident in the population, its not going away but we're protected as we can be by now. I'll maintain facemask discipline and distancing, hope that others do the same, but I just want to live my life again.
Where does the idea that taking stronger action now does nothing other than making people feel a bit better come from? You've probably decided to believe that in order to justify your stance, but its not supported by past wave experiences or the current modelling. The exact amount of good that can be done does come down to many factors, some of which are still not yet known with Omicron. And timing is certainly a factor, there are optimal times to act depending on exactly what is trying to be achieved, and some opportunities have been missed in this wave already. Others remain. And even if those are squandered too, then the emergency version, the last resort that the UK government has had to rely on in the past, always remains on the table. That emergency response never goes no matter what noises some may make, because authorities can never ignore the heaviest form of hospital pressure and will always have to act if things on that front reach a certain level of horror. They just dont act quickly enough to prevent it, only to help cope with the emergency. And that 'emergency' version tends to last longer than the 'act early' version would have, so people that only ever support doing this stuff as a late last resort are the ones who doom us to longer periods of such restrictions!

Sp what does "I just want us to start dealing with Covid being resident in the population" actually mean in practice as far as your are concerned? Its the sort of thing some people have said since the start, whilst others only arrive at such sentiments after getting worn out by the pandemic. But what difference does it make, where is the substance, what is actually being proposed that is any different?

I would suggest that such sentiments bring very little to the table because such thinking has already been baked into establishment plans in this country since the start of the pandemic. They try to avoid taking strong action for as long as possible every time, and only when it becomes completely clear that the presure on hospitals will be too great do they have to switch temporarily to a different plan. The Delta wave is the only one that has been handled a bit differently so far - it was summer and we had vaccines and the prospect of a long school summer holiday to help out, and the context was that they had their mind fixed on completing the easing of restrictions. Under those circumstances they were prepared to delay freedom day in order to stand a better chance of not having to reimpose measures again later, and they just about managed to make that approach work. But they likely only managed this because the amount of self-isolation happening at the peak of that wave (the so-called pingdemic) acted as a sort of equivalent to doing a brief lockdown at the very peak. And they didnt manage to get that wave to fall away down to very low levels before winter arrived, so they likely remained nervous about whether, even without more new variants, such a plan would be workable all year round.

So that Delta wave experience revealed that even if you think lockdowns were imposed too late to prevent peaks of a similar level to those that would have been seen without lockdown, the heavy restrictions imposed to deal with the waves that came before Delta also made a notable difference to getting the number of cases and hospitalisations to fall continually after the peak. And this is one of the reasons why even if authorities have no intention of doing early lockdowns in order to do the most good, they are still forced to do the emergency version of them later as part of coping with an intense emergency in hospitals and across broader society. They didnt have to do that with Delta because the pressure on hospitals was not of the same magnitude, and they obviously figured that the slow grinding pressure that dragged on as a result of the Delta wave not petering out was something they could cope with for months at a time. If they get the opportunity to do the same with Omicron then thats the path they will likely follow, but it already looks like the pressure on hospitals as a result of this Omicron wave will go beyond levels seen in the Delta wave, and that poses a challenge, especially in winter and with high staff sickness levels. To hope to cope wth this, they need some other factors such as length of hospital stay and proportion requiring intensive care to be quite different for Omicron, tipping things back in their favour.

So as far as I'm concerned actually providing something new of substance via 'learning to live with' sentiments, something that really gives us new opportunities not to bother with restrictions, seems implausible unless people want to back it up with ideas such as further rationing of healthcare by not bothering to properly treat as many people with severe covid when the demands on healthcare are high during a wave. If that, or other compromises to medical care are what some people are getting at then they should say so explicitly. Or if they have something else in mind, please explain how exactly we are going to learn to live with it beyond whats already being done. In my book learning to live with covid means actually being willing to learn the lessons of the pandemic so far, not learning new ways to do an ostrich impression.

Returning to what the point of further restrictions would be if enacted soon, here is what the most recently available SAGE modelling minutes said on 19th December:

If the coming wave rises comparatively slowly, then a short intervention for, say, a few weeks’ can prolong the wave’s duration and reduce its peak so that admissions and hospital occupancy remain below levels that would compromise quality of care. The sooner such an intervention is implemented, the lower the pressures on health and care whilst it is in place and the more time is available to assess whether it has had sufficient impact.

It is also possible, however, that the coming wave will grow so fast that a short intervention cannot keep admissions and occupancy below a tolerable threshold. In these circumstances, enacting an intervention early would give time to detect whether such an intervention is insufficient to avoid a compromise of quality of care and adjust accordingly. If measures are implemented only later, “in an emergency”, when hospitals are alreadystruggling, the measures would need to be in place for longer and might be too late to avert very high admissions (and hence hospital occupancy) for an extended period with associated compromises in the quality of care.

 
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Not particularly wanting to get sidetracked on the consultants hours thing, but I currently work closely alongside 6 of them, and a much greater number over the last 8 years, and the part time ones tend to be (genuinely) part time because of kids or age/approaching retirement. Yes some work private alongside NHS hours but it’s far from the norm IME. Probably will vary by speciality.
 
Quite the knob 'ead from what I've seen of this bloke. It's all well and good saying 'oh let's give in' but are the sort of ghouls that cheer him on going to support what's required to live with a virus like this? Mass investment in health care, more work from home, mitigations in schools, the work place and shops, funding of mass testing and so on? Further, are we going to accept around 50000 deaths a year and people getting strokes, kidney failure, millions with ME like symptoms and people getting limbs hacked off from an infectious disease just so we can go for £6 pints and £10 fry ups?

It just seems to be more 'ooh look at me I'm so controversial and contrarian' from him and his ilk.

He's one of the non-SAGE scientists advising the government afaik.
 
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