Conspiraloons – why...?

[laptop]

"It was thought too, that Kant and Weishaupt attended secret conferences of the Sacred Fraternity of Antioch on at least two separate occasions of the 1790's, wherein the sessions of the Neue Erwatung were constituted as true to their own immutable values. From this time on, Kant's writings proceeded in a fashion of gnomic encryption that conceal their true significations only to the initiated."

Hugo von Hofmanstahl, 'The Enochian Idealists', 1903

Well googled. But were they there for the same reason? Or was Kant merely an amused observer?

I tend to the simpler view that Kant's opaque style is the result of his need to obscure from the religious authorities the true implications of his work. He says he set out to prove the existence and elucidate the nature of the Deity - but I think we can agree that the result of his work was the converse.

Anyway, I asked for evidence of the assertion that he'd been funded... which still wouldn't, if true, prove he wasn't merely taking the money for his own ends and bilking his sponsors.

 

[siarc]

the precise nature of any remuneration is elided by von hofmannsthal, but why does it need to be stated explicitly to be true? the noxious tendrils of reductive empiricism traduce themselves, and this is why the illuminati will also confound those who mistrust instinct. there is some suggestion that cheap alloys were used in lieu of gold, as weishaupt thought kant's noumenon as possessing alchemical potentiality. this isn't to say he thought kant an alchemist as some people will no doubt misrepresent me. simply that kant was outwardly frugal, living among simple townsfolk and needing little, but in any illuminati functions he may have had, alloys might as well have been gold.

 

[siarc]

this is also worth reading, there is a microfilm copy at the university groningen which i had the fortune to read

 

[Iam]

how does it follow that something on the internet cannot be true

You'll have to forgive me, I can't find the bit where I've said that it cannot be true...

if you cannot see beyond simple binary oppositions then you are simply falling into a trap they have set for you; it's a simple one, but it works

I really must stop falling into traps. The last one drove a nasty spike right through my I-could-give-a-toss-bone.

 

[Derian]

this is also worth reading, there is a microfilm copy at the university groningen which i had the fortune to read

I read it T'was only a page long though

 

[frogwoman]

this is also worth reading, there is a microfilm copy at the university groningen which i had the fortune to read

that site is pretty dodgy mate .

 

[Derian]

that site is pretty dodgy mate .

*looks at site rather than linked page*

Goodness.

 

[madzone]

*looks at site rather than linked page*

Goodness.

*Please support this site by buying controverisal videos*

 

[Derian]

*Please support this site by buying controverisal videos*

Hours of endless fun

 

[frogwoman]

seriously guys ... this shit is fucking stupid .

i guess some people could call me a conspiracy theoirst because i don't beleive for a second the official theory of 9-11 and i think it's almost certain that certain people had prior knowledge in the US government or were indirectly or even directly involved, although the nonsense about remote control planes and such like is just idiotic.

but i think that 7/7 was genuine ... and like badger kitten has said ... it's far more easy to believe a conspiracy theory about the government putting bombs onto the bottom of trains than deal with the reasons why such an atrocity happened, why people felt so angry that they did that, what in their upbringing and their environment, and the political situation, made them do that .

its just no good pretending that it didn't happen, that there aren't people out there who could be psychologically capable of doing such a deed, which would make them lose their lives in the process, or physically able to access the materials which could let them do so.

it makes as much sense as the official explanation that we were given in the first few days, that it was an elite cell of al-qaeda operatives operating from the uk and that they had been radicalised for whatever reason
the fact is that there are young muslim people who DO feel like this, and that is directly due to the islamophobia in this society and the war in iraq etc, as well as the fact that extremism has been allowed to fester by so-called community leaders that are completely unaccountable and out of touch and people who were too blind to see what was coming and ignored the warnings and the signs, and people who took advantage of it to further their twisted cause .

they were just ordinary young guys and that is the tragedy of the situation . it could be you or me or anyone ... the tragedy of it when i heard a programme on siddique khan's life on radio 4 was that i felt sorry for him ... he was just ordinary, not a hero, not a devil or anything just a guy who was angry about the state of the world and arrived at the conclusion that the only way to sort it out was to kill himself and murder innocent people .

now, believing in some bullshit conspiracy is so much easier than to ask yourself the real questions about why the atrocity of 7/7 took place, about what in our society led to this occuring, led to people thinking it was a good thing. it allows people to reduce the villain to some bad guy in the government and as soon as they are removed it will be ok again ... because it isn't like that .

are you going to say that every terrorist act is the result of a conspiracy ... every bomb that's ever exploded on the face of this planet ... or is it only those that get into the news?

the world isn't like that, and azrael you're an intelligent guy ... it would be good if you applied the same scepticism to the words of the people you take so seriously as to those of the mainstream media ... because it doesn't take long to dig around on almost any conspiracy theory website and find some seriously dodgy shit ... and i'm not only talking about anti-semitism ... im talking about the pope being an antichrist, about the communist liberal media, about europe being in imminent danger of a muslim takeover, about a gay conspiracy to rule the world, about aliens secretly visiting earth and the government trying to cover this up, about aids not being real, about human sacrifices, about the IQs of black people, and satan and satanists, and all kinds of crazy things.

some of it looks identical to evangelical christian propaganda, and when i have looked further, i have been right ... which leads me to think that maybe these "truth seekers" aren't really anything of the sort ... but are in fact populists charlatans and evangelists looking to make a quick buck ... and they discredit and undermine any attempts to get at the truth by either accusing their opponents of being illuminati stooges or making anyone who does any research into what our government is up to look like a psycho ... and the funny thing is that if there really is such a big conspiracy as they say, then nothing has happened to them ... none of them have disappeared or anything ... which leads me to think that they are not really saying anything truthful at all but instead distracting people's attention by focusing on masons and such like and actually aiding that which they claim to want to stop ...

oh and siarc trying to psychoanalyse people who believe this and making them out to be mentally superior to the gullible "masses" and the "sheep" is just fucking stupid and patronising, there is no such thing as we are all different... what makes you think that someone who believes in the NWO is any more perceptive and sceptical of the world going on around them than someone who doesn't ...

 

[William of Walworth]

azrael you're an intelligent guy ... it would be good if you applied the same scepticism to the words of the people you take so seriously as to those of the mainstream media ... because it doesn't take long to dig around on almost any conspiracy theory website and find some seriously dodgy shit ... and i'm not only talking about anti-semitism ... im talking about the pope being an antichrist, about the communist liberal media, about europe being in imminent danger of a muslim takeover, about a gay conspiracy to rule the world, about aliens secretly visiting earth and the government trying to cover this up, about aids not being real, about human sacrifices, about the IQs of black people, and satan and satanists, and all kinds of crazy things. [/.B]

Spot on froggy. I've not reearched these sites as much as you have, but so many of them are PATENTLY and OBVIOUSLY dodgy. And conspiranoids do have a tendancy to cite them and link to them uncritically and undersceptically.

some of it looks identical to evangelical christian propaganda, and when i have looked further, i have been right ... which leads me to think that maybe these "truth seekers" aren't really anything of the sort ... but are in fact populists charlatans and evangelists looking to make a quick buck ... and they discredit and undermine any attempts to get at the truth by either accusing their opponents of being illuminati stooges or making anyone who does any research into what our government is up to look like a psycho ... and the funny thing is that if there really is such a big conspiracy as they say, then nothing has happened to them ... none of them have disappeared or anything ... which leads me to think that they are not really saying anything truthful at all but instead distracting people's attention by focusing on masons and such like and actually aiding that which they claim to want to stop ...

I agree with most of the above frogwoman, particularly the bit in bold. So many indepemdent minded investigative journalists/researchers, and professional non-aligned historians. must be intensely frustrated by the way the more full-on-bonkers conspiracy theorising gets in the way of and discredits true investigation, true uncovering of government/establishment wrongdoing (I appreciate I generalise here, but you get my point). Yet any historian, journalist, investigator, or even mere website poster, who questions the reliability of so many of the websites cited, will inevitably, at some point, be sneered at and written off by the 'truthseekers' as a gullible dupe of the establishment.

oh and siarc trying to psychoanalyse people who believe this and making them out to be mentally superior to the gullible "masses" and the "sheep" is just fucking stupid and patronising

siarc, assumimg he isn't trolling, seems to be utterly indifferent to how counterproductively alienating his way of arguing his case is.

what makes you think that someone who believes in the NWO is any more perceptive and sceptical of the world going on around them than someone who doesn't ...

Pure arrogance, and sneering contempt towards the ignorance of anyone who doesn't buy into his worldview???

Great way forward on the persuasiveness front, siarc.

 

[smokedout]

and the funny thing is that if there really is such a big conspiracy as they say, then nothing has happened to them

great post, though thats not strictly true, google phil schneider

go on its a great 'un

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pure arrogance, and sneering contempt towards the ignorance of anyone who doesn't buy into his worldview???

Great way forward on the persuasiveness front, siarc.

Perhaps he isn't trying to persuade anyone to his viewpoint?

After all his air of superiority (and his dull reiteration of linkages RA Wilson generated bestsellers from 4 decades ago) would be diluted by an increase in "believers".

And that's what the whole CT thing is about, William. Being able to tell yourself that you're "in the know", one of the "elect", and best of all, you're on the side of good, revealing evil to the bovine masses while kinda being a member of a "secret society" (of "truth seekers" if you will) yourself.

 

[frogwoman]

interesting ... what do you think about it smokedout? he doesn't seem like a typical conspiracist ... it seems as though he actually did find out some stuff ... it's a shame he seemed to have gone a bit nuts though

 

[frogwoman]

Perhaps he isn't trying to persuade anyone to his viewpoint?

After all his air of superiority (and his dull reiteration of linkages RA Wilson generated bestsellers from 4 decades ago) would be diluted by an increase in "believers".

And that's what the whole CT thing is about, William. Being able to tell yourself that you're "in the know", one of the "elect", and best of all, you're on the side of good, revealing evil to the bovine masses while kinda being a member of a "secret society" (of "truth seekers" if you will) yourself.

good post ...

 

[Derian]

Tbh, I lost interest in this thread when no-one picked up on the alchemeic clues that siarc kindly threw in our path. It's not worth the discussion without a spot of Hermes Trismegistus

 

[smokedout]

dunno, i spent a lot of time researching conspiracy after reading icke and just becoming fascinated with it, just the idea that such worldviews could come about

and im largely cynical but there is some wierd shit out there, pnil schneider being one of them, and ive laughed at ufo-ers and the like for years, and still do

but there is a fuck of a lot of anomalies and valid alien type reports, sometimes i wonder whether the cynic in me is always right - just because theres no cast iron evidence does it mean it doesnt exist, thats a bit flat earth to me

having said that im not sure of the value in pursuing it until there is genuine, incontrovertible evidence

ive wasted too much time reading some daft books to go any deeper into it

also the piri reis maps i cant really find any explanation for, though id love to here one

and kirlian photography

 

[madzone]

Perhaps he isn't trying to persuade anyone to his viewpoint?

After all his air of superiority (and his dull reiteration of linkages RA Wilson generated bestsellers from 4 decades ago) would be diluted by an increase in "believers".

And that's what the whole CT thing is about, William. Being able to tell yourself that you're "in the know", one of the "elect", and best of all, you're on the side of good, revealing evil to the bovine masses while kinda being a member of a "secret society" (of "truth seekers" if you will) yourself.

You saying I'm a cow?

 

[bigbry]

seriously guys ... this shit is fucking stupid .

i guess some people could call me a conspiracy theoirst because i don't beleive for a second the official theory of 9-11 and i think it's almost certain that certain people had prior knowledge in the US government or were indirectly or even directly involved, although the nonsense about remote control planes and such like is just idiotic.

...

You have to differentiate between the theory that the US Government knew the actual hijackers were going to fly planes into buildings on 9/11 and the fact that the Security Services had a pretty good idea that someone would try something one day.

The first one almost certainly not ............. the second almost certainly yes.

Same with 7/7 - our Security Services were saying an attack was likely - but these four individuals to bomb three trains and a bus, it would be very difficult to have worked that out.

I think the fact that they , allegedly, thwart some attacks is pretty smart - to thwart everyone is just about impossible.

 

[Major Tom]

http://www.lobster-magazine.co.uk/

Has anyone mentioned Lobster Magazine yet? A voice of sanity in the area of conspiracy theory. The guy running it takes an academic research-based approach to assessing any core of truth within conspiracy theories. I strongly recommend taking a look.

 

[Jazzz]

And that's what the whole CT thing is about, William. Being able to tell yourself that you're "in the know", one of the "elect", and best of all, you're on the side of good, revealing evil to the bovine masses while kinda being a member of a "secret society" (of "truth seekers" if you will) yourself.

Well, it keeps us off the streets

frogwoman, have you seen Loose Change? well worth watching. (I linked to it earlier forgive the repeat).

 

[Maidmarian]

The bit about attacks on our race as a whole?

Yeah I`d call the present global economy an attack on the human species.

IF that HAD been what you meant, I feel sure you wouldn't have phrased it like that.

 

[siarc]

IF that HAD been what you meant, I feel sure you wouldn't have phrased it like that.

that is an absurd and libellous affront, an inferrence which says more about your own condititoning than any subconscious racism on the part of azrael, who i am sure was quite honest in his use of the term.

that is an excellent documentary on '9/11' by the way.

 

[Maidmarian]

that is an absurd and libellous affront,

It is neither of those things.

 

[Jazzz]

He did mean it like that, and further he's clarified it for you maidmarian, not that it needed any clarification. It doesn't matter what race a handful of elite families are if they are ruling to everyone else's detriment.

Yes Loose Change is pretty good by my reckoning siarc, I've just been handing out copies to my family. There are some quibbles over some of the material but it's by far the best thing yet on the subject.

 

[frogwoman]

frogwoman, have you seen Loose Change? well worth watching. (I linked to it earlier forgive the repeat).

my friend sent me it ages ago, i have it saved to my favourites but i still haven't got round to watching more than about five minutes of it yet!

 

[zArk]

For third time of asking, please post up evidence of the conspiracy behind 9/11 and 7/7

you are clearly aware that there is evidence of a conspiracy

is an agreement of two or more people to commit a crime, or to accomplish a legal end through illegal actions

so.... i think you need to clarify your post.

If there was no conspiracy behind 9/11 then you are admitting that security services, the government and the public knew about the plan (official version al-qaeda did it) and did nothing. therefore we are all guilty of knowledge before the fact.

Or are you saying that there wasnt a conspiracy by certain elements of the government and security services but they clearly did gain a legal end.

Or are you saying...

i could go on.. but please clarify because there clearly must have been a conspiracy to carry out the attacks.

 

[zArk]

or are you playing on the meaning of conspiracy theory

a theory that defies common historical or current understanding of events

in that, you are saying that

"we all know that common historical understanding of 9/11 and 7/7 is flawed, so therefore there is no conspiracy theory. Hence Conspiraloon"

 

[pembrokestephen]

that is of course a libel and a fallacy
how does it follow that something on the internet cannot be true
if you cannot see beyond simple binary oppositions then you are simply falling into a trap they have set for you; it's a simple one, but it works

'the commensurate value of death relinquishes nothing, forestalls nothing; only an absolute evil can convince itself that abjection possesses a rectitude and logic unto itself, as the flustered eagle tears off the limbs of the spartan infant upon the hillside'

bataille, ecrits

I'm beginning to like this guy Not sure I understand what he's on about, though.

 

[William of Walworth]

frogwoman, have you seen Loose Change? well worth watching. (I linked to it earlier forgive the repeat).

Can any one other than Jazzz, and other than those predisposed to believe in 'alternative versions', please give an objective idea of whether this documentary is worthwhile??