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Collective punishment

Fullyplumped said:
It can't be that obvious if I have to try and pin you down in this way.


You're not pinning me down in any way, what you've done is make a point so obvious and generalised that I didn't realise you were trying to make it.

Anyway - the thread is about Israel's collective punishment of the Palestinians. So back to that, eh?
 
Dubversion said:
You're not pinning me down in any way, what you've done is make a point so obvious and generalised that I didn't realise you were trying to make it.

Anyway - the thread is about Israel's collective punishment of the Palestinians. So back to that, eh?
No it isn't, it's about "collective punishment" - look at the top of the page if you don't believe me. All you're doing is trying to turn it into a legal argument, ig noring the moral issue. If only Israel is legally capable of being described as perpetrating the legally defined concept of "collective punsihment" under international law then of course you win your argument, but it's a pretty hollow victory and it's almost dishonest.
 
Fullyplumped said:
If you've read my recent posts on the subject you will have discerned that I believe that the Israeli government has been perpertrating collective punishment consistently. I also think that the actions of the various Palestinian organisations linked to government have also amounted to collective punishment - indiscriminate acts of bloody terrorism designed to cow the Israeli population into submission. Both sides have achieved thousands of dead people and have failed to secure their legitimate goals, and as soon as some progress seems to be starting...bang! and we're back to square one with more dead people. Moono takes such a one-sided view about this and so do some others, and pretends not to know about Palestinian crimes - e.g. asking for chapter and verse on the various bus bombings.
I think until very recently the BIG difference was that one was the Governing party of a Nation ad the others were not. And I’m not sure how much that has changed?

Again I haven’t been but I did take an interest in the elections in Palestine and found many things that were just not reported in the press over here.

One example of this is that many of he people who stood for Hamas were Christians I also read a lot about why others who do live there believe they were elected and in the main it was because of the work they did on the ground in hospitals and schools and that they were a Palestinian party and not a Muslim one as reported over here.
 
Fullyplumped said:
No it isn't, it's about "collective punishment" - look at the top of the page if you don't believe me. All you're doing is trying to turn it into a legal argument, ig noring the moral issue. If only Israel is legally capable of being described as perpetrating the legally defined concept of "collective punsihment" under international law then of course you win your argument, but it's a pretty hollow victory and it's almost dishonest.


Jesus fucking wept, i'm not ignoring a moral issue or unfairly condemning Israel, i'm just disagreeing with YOUR initial assertion that the Palestinians were guilty of acts of collective punishment. I'm not trying to win anything, I'm just trying to stay on topic. The rest of it is you putting words in my mouth. What the fuck is dishonest with correcting you on your incorrect assertion?
 
Fullyplumped said:
Well that shows how stupid and irrelevant much of "international law" really is.

it's not at all. terrorism is an act of aggression by an entity that is committed outside of national or international law. palestinians commit acts of terrorism against israel that take the form of all sorts of things, either targetted agression against the state or acts of violence against the common people of the state. it's all terrorism, and international law treats it as such.

collective punishment is specifically something a state does - a state is an entity that is bound by international law. international law specifically states that targetting the common people in punishment for the acts of a particular person or organisation or persons or organisations unknown is illegal.

international law doesn't address terrorism because that is generally for individual states to deal with, within the confines of international criminal law.

international law does address collective punishment because the internal police forces of any one country can't go and arrest the entire army and govt of any one nation.
 
Fullyplumped said:
So - and let me just check so we're all clear about it - you think that what the Israeli government is doing is a form of collective punishment, contrary to the canons of international law?

But you don't have much of a problem with the actions of the Palestinians which led to it?

The soldier kidnapped was breaking international law by being in Gaza.
 
Well I’ve read this thread and I have to say I don’t see anyone saying one is right and one is wrong.
What people are trying to explain to you is that “Collective Punishment” by a Nation State is against international law as is terrorism only that is covered by a different international law.
 
What a refreshing thread ! Informative, fairly polite and almost entirely Dumpty-free.

FM;
Okay, do you think we could have this expanded upon a bit and made into an explicit argument or discussion topic? Because I think there may be some confusion as to your thesis here, which will make it hard for people to maintain the high standards of reasoned debate that the ME forum is famous for. Ta.

The esteemed membership beat me to it. :cool:
 
FridgeMagnet said:
Okay, do you think we could have this expanded upon a bit and made into an explicit argument or discussion topic? Because I think there may be some confusion as to your thesis here, which will make it hard for people to maintain the high standards of reasoned debate that the ME forum is famous for. Ta.

That's a bit more like your old self, Fridge. ;)

Nice to see you back.
 
Palestinian and Israeli diplomats traded accusations at an emergency session of the UN Security Council called by Arab nations - but a resolution condemning the Israeli offensive was blocked, apparently due to US opposition

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5135776.stm


U.S. Ambassador John Bolton said he did not think a resolution was advisable, cautioning the council "to avoid taking any steps that would unexpectedly exacerbate tensions in the region," given the complexity of the situation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/733366.html

Thank you ,America, for your wisdom as 'world leader'.
 
Fullyplumped said:
the subject of the thread is collective punishment.
No, it's not, read the first post. He's talking about the actions of the israeli state amounting to collective punishment.

Or do you perhaps also want to discuss the bombing of Dresden?
:confused:
 
Quite. It was very clear from post #2, which just happens to have been made by the complainant.
 
The military wing of the governing Palestinian party, Hamas, has said it will attack targets inside Israel if Israel does not end its Gaza offensive.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5139108.stm


Now that's a downright shame because I don't want to see a whole heap of innocent Israelis get dead.
The Zionist government are a bunch of whackos.


Hundreds of protesters gathered outside the Israeli prime minister's home on Saturday night to denounce the government as war criminals and demand an end to the Gaza invasion.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2E189C05-2DD8-492A-BC7B-1E5A73F26064.htm

Evidently, even Israelis think so.
 
I read this article on Tikkun, and I think it brings some clarity to events in Gaza.

An Israeli Speaks out Against Israel's Recent Actions

What Israel is doing in Gaza has nothing to do with securing Gilad Shalit's release, according to Israeli newspaper Haaretz commentator Gideon Levy. July 2, 2006

A Black Flag
By Gideon Levy

A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to penetrate Syria's airspace. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament.

A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization. The harsher the steps, the more monstrous and stupid they become, the more the moral underpinnings for them are removed and the stronger the impression that the Israeli government has lost its nerve. Now one must hope that the weekend lull, whether initiated by Egypt or the prime minister, and in any case to the dismay of Channel 2's Roni Daniel and the IDF, will lead to a radical change.

Everything must be done to win Gilad Shalit's release. What we are doing now in Gaza has nothing to do with freeing him. It is a widescale act of vengeance, the kind that the IDF and Shin Bet have wanted to conduct for some time, mostly motivated by the deep frustration that the army commanders feel about their impotence against the Qassams and the daring Palestinian guerilla raid. There's a huge gap between the army unleashing its frustration and a clever and legitimate operation to free the kidnapped soldier.



To prevent the army from running as amok as it would like, a strong and judicious political echelon is required. But facing off against the frustrated army is Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz's tyro regime, weak and happless. Until the weekend lull, it appeared that each step proposed by the army and Shin Bet had been immediately approved for backing. That does not bode well, not only for the chances of freeing Shalit, but also for the future management of the government, which is being revealed to be as weak as the Hamas government.

The only wise and restrained voice heard so far was that of the soldier's father, Noam Shalit, of all people. That noble man called at what is clearly his most difficult hour, not for stridency and not for further damage done to the lives of soldiers and innocent Palestinians. Against the background of the IDF's unrestrained actions and the arrogant bragging of the latest macho spokesmen, Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant of the Southern Command and Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Gilad, Shalit's father's voice stood out like a voice crying in the wilderness.

Sending tens of thousands of miserable inhabitants running from their homes, dozens of kilometers from where his son is supposedly hidden, and cutting off the electricity to hundreds of thousands of others, is certainly not what he meant in his understated emotional pleas. It's a shame nobody is listening to him, of all people.

The legitimate basis for the IDF's operation was stripped away the moment it began. It's no accident that nobody mentions the day before the attack on the Kerem Shalom fort, when the IDF kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. The difference between us and them? We kidnapped civilians and they captured a soldier, we are a state and they are a terror organization. How ridiculously pathetic Amos Gilad sounds when he says that the capture of Shalit was "illegitimate and illegal," unlike when the IDF grabs civilians from their homes. How can a senior official in the defense ministry claim that "the head of the snake" is in Damascus, when the IDF uses the exact same methods?

True, when the IDF and Shin Bet grab civilians from their homes - and they do so often - it is not to murder them later. But sometimes they are killed on the doorsteps of their homes, although it is not necessary, and sometimes they are grabbed to serve as "bargaining chips," like in Lebanon and now, with the Palestinian legislators. What an uproar there would be if the Palestinians had grabbed half the members of the Israeli government. How would we label them?

Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives. And what will this inhumane step lead to? Support for the Israeli government? Their enlistment as informants and collaborators for the Shin Bet? Can the miserable farmers of Beit Hanun and Beit Lahia do anything about the Qassam rocket-launching cells? Will bombing an already destroyed airport do anything to free the soldier or was it just to decorate the headlines?

Did anyone think about what would have happened if Syrian planes had managed to down one of the Israeli planes that brazenly buzzed their president's palace? Would we have declared war on Syria? Another "legitimate war"? Will the blackout of Gaza bring down the Hamas government or cause the population to rally around it? And even if the Hamas government falls, as Washington wants, what will happen on the day after? These are questions for which nobody has any real answers. As usual here: Quiet, we're shooting. But this time we are not only shooting. We are bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right?
 
Good link. It's strange isn't it, how you instinctively know these things and then somebody comes along with an article which confirms and gels.
 
bluestreak said:
it's not at all. terrorism is an act of aggression by an entity that is committed outside of national or international law. palestinians commit acts of terrorism against israel that take the form of all sorts of things, either targetted agression against the state or acts of violence against the common people of the state. it's all terrorism, and international law treats it as such.

collective punishment is specifically something a state does - a state is an entity that is bound by international law. international law specifically states that targetting the common people in punishment for the acts of a particular person or organisation or persons or organisations unknown is illegal.

international law doesn't address terrorism because that is generally for individual states to deal with, within the confines of international criminal law.

international law does address collective punishment because the internal police forces of any one country can't go and arrest the entire army and govt of any one nation.
Well I still don't agree, and while of course the Israeli Government's actions amount to collective punishment, I consider that the actions of the Palestinian groups connected to government are acts of collective punishment whatever international law says.

But I did take the time to check, and found the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War which says at article 33 that "no protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited." This provision confers rights on individuals. It doesn't specify those on whom specific duties apply.

Both the Israeli and Palestinian powers are abusing human rights, practising collective punshment on the others. One is not superior to the other. And it's not working.
 
Fullyplumped said:
This provision confers rights on individuals. It doesn't specify those on whom specific duties apply.
I would have thought the duty is on those who signed the treaty.
 
TAE said:
I would have thought the duty is on those who signed the treaty.
No. The right not to be subject to collective punishment applies to all "protected persons". The duty not to apply collective punishment applies to everyone, The Convention does not specify those to whom it does and does not apply.

What we're seeing, and no doubt what we're going to see, is a spiral of one side collectively punishing the people of the other side, followed by the other side collectively punishing the first side and so on and so on.

This is a matter of fact, not of law.
 
Fullyplumped said:
Well I still don't agree, and while of course the Israeli Government's actions amount to collective punishment, I consider that the actions of the Palestinian groups connected to government are acts of collective punishment whatever international law says.


morally you're right. IMO terrorism should only be directed against legitimate military or governmental targets if at all. but legally you're wrong, which is what this thread is about.

of course, moral and legal, as i'm sure you'll agree, are not the same thing.
 
Fullyplumped said:
What we're seeing, and no doubt what we're going to see, is a spiral of one side collectively punishing the people of the other side, followed by the other side collectively punishing the first side and so on and so on.

This is a matter of fact, not of law.

No, that's a matter of analysis. Regardless of what I think of your analysis - accept or reject - it's still only analysis. You're still playing word games, the trouble is you keep getting it wrong.

And what bluestreak says above still stands.
 
bluestreak said:
morally you're right. IMO terrorism should only be directed against legitimate military or governmental targets if at all. but legally you're wrong, which is what this thread is about. of course, moral and legal, as i'm sure you'll agree, are not the same thing.
You make it clear that you feel that some forms of terrorism are less unacceptable than others. Oh well.

Morally, I'm right. I've played the game on this thread and cited the relevant instrument of international law which suggests I'm legally right too.

And it's not just me, either. Amnesty International takes a similar view too...

Armed groups have an international legal obligation to respect the principles of international humanitarian law, including Article 3 common to the Four Geneva Conventions of 1949, which reflects customary international law, and which prohibits the taking of hostages, murder and cruel treatment and torture. Amnesty International calls on the armed groups holding Corporal Gilad Shalit to comply with these principles.
 
Dubversion said:
No, that's a matter of analysis. Regardless of what I think of your analysis - accept or reject - it's still only analysis. You're still playing word games, the trouble is you keep getting it wrong.
I was distinguishing facts from law, whether you call tyhat analysis or something else is your own word game. Let's hope the Palestinians return their hostage and don't ratchet up the violence from their part. We will see. Maybe the legal arguments will prove compelling on their own!
 
Fullyplumped said:
You make it clear that you feel that some forms of terrorism are less unacceptable than others. Oh well.

Well, US and UK state terrorism seems pretty acceptable to too many people, and Israel just follows their example.

And it's not just me, either. Amnesty International takes a similar view too...

Armed groups have an international legal obligation to respect the principles of international humanitarian law, including Article 3 common to the Four Geneva Conventions of 1949, which reflects customary international law, and which prohibits the taking of hostages, murder and cruel treatment and torture. Amnesty International calls on the armed groups holding Corporal Gilad Shalit to comply with these principles.

Do they make the same calls to respect the Geneva rights of the Palestinian hostages?
 
Fullyplumped said:
I was distinguishing facts from law, whether you call tyhat analysis or something else is your own word game.

oh jesus, you just won't see it, will you?

I think I'll add you to my 'obstinate but stupid' list and leave you to it.
 
Dubversion said:
oh jesus, you just won't see it, will you? I think I'll add you to my 'obstinate but stupid' list and leave you to it.
Is the list published anywehere? I think I might want to put that distinction in my CV! :p
 
But anyway, I see the ratcheting continues -

"Meanwhile, Hamas's armed wing, Izaddin al-Kassam, on Sunday threatened to attack infrastructure facilities inside Israel, including schools, hospitals and universities. The threat, the first of its kind since Hamas won the parliamentary election last January, was issued in response to continued Israeli military strikes in the Gaza Strip.

"If they continue with these attacks, we will strike at targets in Zionist territory that we have not struck until now," said the organization's spokesman."
 
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