cesar chavez and illegal immigration

[durruti02]

doesnt sound that way to me from what youve just said on the other thread

oh go on then tell me .. i want rights for whites?? that i am heinrich himmler as someone stated before ( and p.s. this CR is why these thread scontinue as peopelk really do not want to think it through)

you dope where i live the majority are black .. and it is they who are sufferring from lack of work and training and housing

 

[audiotech]

cos i do not want to live in a BNP society ..

No doubt some of the leaders of this irredeemably obnoxious and reactionary party see themselves as dictatorial leaders in waiting, but I can't believe you think that any time soon the BNP is about to gain power?

Any international socialist worth a salt at this moment in time is, not to add to the BNP's creed of intolerance and hatred, but to protect their fellow workers of all races from lies, intimidation and attack and not waste their time feeding BNP delusions of importance.

 

[smokedout]

oh go on then tell me .. i want rights for whites?? that i am heinrich himmler as someone stated before ( and p.s. this CR is why these thread scontinue as peopelk really do not want to think it through)

well no, but your vision of a local society for local people is very in keeping with extreme conservatism and would go down well with the bnp

you dope where i live the majority are black .. and it is they who are sufferring from lack of work and training and housing

classic bnp style argument ... im not racist ive got black friends and everything

 

[ViolentPanda]

But why do it, you're essentially talking to yourself and you are literally making the same points over and over in a very short period of time. You might as well go and smash your head against a wall.

Because if he wasn't on here doing this he'd have to go round his mate tbaldwins' house and listen to his Skrewdriver album.

 

[revol68]

jesus is that fanny dragging Durruti's name through the mud still banging on about immigration.

What's amazing is the fact you think anyone would be shocked that capital has used illegal immigrants to break strikes. I mean basically what's your point caller? That the state is two faced on immigration? That illegal immigrants represent a highly flexible and exploitable reserve army of labour that is used to undermine working class militancy, drive down wages and conditions? Woah that's well insightful.

So what's your response to this? Oh yeah it's to increase the amount of illegal immigrants, to call on this very same state to crack down on illegal immigrants and hence furthering it's grip on a very vulnerable pool of labour, whilst undercutting any potential those immigrants have to organise themselves alongside other workers to improve their wages and conditions?

your a smart cunt, eh.

 

[rekil]

jesus is that fanny dragging Durruti's name through the mud still banging on about immigration.

Fuck off. According to the search function, it's only the 16th thread he's started with 'immigration' in the title.

 

[revol68]

Also Durruti 02 if you want to start talking shit about closed shops I suggest you take a wee look at Northern Ireland where defacto closed shops saw the division of occupations along sectarian lines as jobs went to who you know, friends, "good lads and lass's". This exasperated class division, undercut working class militancy and helps explain why wages in such occupations were considerably lower than in the rest of the UK.

Now if we couple your closed shop with your "Sons and Daughters" (or the Royston Vasey) housing plan, you've got an incredibly explosive recipe for race/ethno national ghettoisation and conflict.

I notice a BNP councillor resigned, there's a job oppurtunity for you.

 

[tbaldwin]

classic bnp style argument ... im not racist ive got black friends and everything

classic liberal middle class wank comment.....Showing their ignorance and narrow minded attitude...

 

[revol68]

classic liberal middle class wank comment.....Showing their ignorance and narrow minded attitude...

mate your a moron, stop trying the more workin clarse than thou, innit, shit and try dealing with the issues I raised.

You and Durruti 02 are contempable gobshites, your obsession with immigration would make Richard Little John blush.

 

[tbaldwin]

mate your a moron, stop trying the more workin clarse than thou, innit, shit and try dealing with the issues I raised.

You and Durruti 02 are contempable gobshites, your obsession with immigration would make Richard Little John blush.

What issues are those? Do you mean the ROYSTON VASEY comment....That was certainly a real gem....Anybody who believes that local communities should have more of a say must be a real sad nutter eh......And anyone who criticises economic migration must be a real Jim davidson eh.....
Yes anybody who disagrees with you just has to be a real moron i guess.......

 

[revol68]

the points i raised above that you intellectual pygmy.

 

[tbaldwin]

the points i raised above that you intellectual pygmy.

Sorry mate but they went way over my head i mean who would have known there was a problem with religious sectarianism in NI.....Your intellect is really towering and showing up like a beacon of light on a cloudy day....
People like me and durruti can obviously learn so much from you......

 

[revol68]

Sorry mate but they went way over my head i mean who would have known there was a problem with religious sectarianism in NI.....Your intellect is really towering and showing up like a beacon of light on a cloudy day....
People like me and durruti can obviously learn so much from you......

A problem that closed shops help fuel as did a defacto Son's and Daughters housing policy, albeit it one maintained through paramilitary and sectarian terroritorialism than local government policy.

mate you don't even know the questions nevermind the answers.

 

[tbaldwin]

A problem that closed shops help fuel as did a defacto Son's and Daughters housing policy, albeit it one maintained through paramilitary and sectarian terroritorialism than local government policy.

mate you don't even know the questions nevermind the answers.

Excellent pick one example from NI and draw a parrallel across the whole world....
Perhaps then we should all be anti unions now as well cos you know what when the ulster workers went on strike etc......

 

[revol68]

Excellent pick one example from NI and draw a parrallel across the whole world....
Perhaps then we should all be anti unions now as well cos you know what when the ulster workers went on strike etc......

okay so closed shops and son's and daugthers housing policies wouldn't lead to a division between settled populations and recent immigrant waves how?

where's your cunt of a mate who sails under the flag of convenience "Durruti" (let's not mention that Durruti was himself an economic migrant in South America for a number of years).

 

[tbaldwin]

okay so closed shops and son's and daugthers housing policies wouldn't lead to a division between settled populations and recent immigrant waves how?

where's your cunt of a mate who sails under the flag of convenience "Durruti" (let's not mention that Durruti was himself an economic migrant in South America for a number of years).

Closed shops are more durrutis arguement than mine..But no i dont think that closed shops would all lead to an upsurge in sectarian and racial divisions.
But i'm an Internationalist and believe that supporting the free market migration policies has a catastrophic effect across the world.
I want to see an end to mass immigration.

 

[cockneyrebel]

What's amazing is the fact you think anyone would be shocked that capital has used illegal immigrants to break strikes. I mean basically what's your point caller? That the state is two faced on immigration? That illegal immigrants represent a highly flexible and exploitable reserve army of labour that is used to undermine working class militancy, drive down wages and conditions? Woah that's well insightful.

Bang on. Next we'll be told that the earth is round. Stunning insights.

Also Durruti 02 if you want to start talking shit about closed shops I suggest you take a wee look at Northern Ireland where defacto closed shops saw the division of occupations along sectarian lines as jobs went to who you know, friends, "good lads and lass's". This exasperated class division, undercut working class militancy and helps explain why wages in such occupations were considerably lower than in the rest of the UK.

Now if we couple your closed shop with your "Sons and Daughters" (or the Royston Vasey) housing plan, you've got an incredibly explosive recipe for race/ethno national ghettoisation and conflict.

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with the closed shop used in the right way, but if used in the way durutti is suggesting it also can have potential problems.

By the way revo durutti and tbaldwin have very different views:

1) tbaldwin doesn't say much in terms of practical stuff but ultimately says that we need stalinist style border controls and mass deportations. When it's pointed out that even if you wanted this it would be utterly utopian on a global level he seems happy with the imperialist countries have fortress borders and fuck the rest.

Oh apart from claims that the rich countries should help out the poor ones a bit more. And he calls people liberals hahahaha

2) Durutti actually supports open borders. But then wants to set up protected local housing lists and closed shops in the unions.

He hasn't responded yet as to where the local borders would be, whether locals would get priority on the NHS regardless of need (like with housing) and how the closed shops would operate i.e. would people moving into local areas be excluded from jobs.

I rasied the question that if I move from south to north london will I think be excluded from being a priority when it comes to housing, jobs, the NHS etc etc

 

[durruti02]

1 ..No doubt some of the leaders of this irredeemably obnoxious and reactionary party see themselves as dictatorial leaders in waiting, but I can't believe you think that any time soon the BNP is about to gain power?

2 .. Any international socialist worth a salt at this moment in time is, not to add to the BNP's creed of intolerance and hatred, but to protect their fellow workers of all races from lies, intimidation and attack and not waste their time feeding BNP delusions of importance.

1 .. no i do not think that the BNP will get power soon .. however i think we are heading into difficlut economic times whether thru resource shortage or the rise of china .. and i think there will be a MAJOR reaction in this country from the state .. we need to be organised and prepared .. at the moment we are nopt even at first base

3 .. nonsense mate .. you do nothing to build unity .. thats why we are where we are

 

[durruti02]

1 well no, but your vision of a local society for local people is very in keeping with extreme conservatism and would go down well with the bnp

2 classic bnp style argument ... im not racist ive got black friends and everything

1 yep but you think trade unions are conservative ..

2 .. dear oh dear .. actually my bestest friend is black! .. but you have missed the point .. er again .. that what i am talking is colour culture free .. i am talking about processes of capitlaism and ho wthey are affecting the w/c in this country .. it is you and the other liberals who constantly try to bring race into it .. the w/c where i live is predominantly BEM ..

 

[durruti02]

jesus is that fanny dragging Durruti's name through the mud still banging on about immigration.

1 .. What's amazing is the fact you think anyone would be shocked that capital has used illegal immigrants to break strikes. I mean basically what's your point caller? That the state is two faced on immigration? That illegal immigrants represent a highly flexible and exploitable reserve army of labour that is used to undermine working class militancy, drive down wages and conditions? Woah that's well insightful.

2 .. So what's your response to this? Oh yeah it's to increase the amount of illegal immigrants, to call on this very same state to crack down on illegal immigrants and hence furthering it's grip on a very vulnerable pool of labour, whilst undercutting any potential those immigrants have to organise themselves alongside other workers to improve their wages and conditions?

your a smart cunt, eh.

a smarter cunt that you obviously as i actually READ what people say

1 .. try also reading what the left and most @'s say .. they would flip if you suggestted to them what you have just written here

2 .. er actually that is about the opposite of what i argue ( sorry to let the facts intrude ) ..i have always argued for a w/c response .. TU/left campaigns against companies who use cheap labour .. a turn back to the closed shop .. campigns for local recruitment .. and for mass investment in training .. against agencies that recruit cheap labour and an idological attack on what is going on which is entirely absent from @/left publications bar that odd CP grouping

did you see the thread on 45% youth unemployment?

next time read before you jump in eh

 

[tbaldwin]

1) tbaldwin doesn't say much in terms of practical stuff but ultimately says that we need stalinist style border controls and mass deportations. When it's pointed out that even if you wanted this it would be utterly utopian on a global level he seems happy with the imperialist countries have fortress borders and fuck the rest.

Oh apart from claims that the rich countries should help out the poor ones a bit more. And he calls people liberals hahahaha

The stalinist slur is a bit misplaced...I do believe in laws and stuff but i believe those laws should reflect popular opinion not the opinion of a self selected elite....Bit of a Majoritarian Socialist,Populist?Democratic Socialist? Menshevik????
And i think the West is too blame for people starving and living in poverty in much of the world. The West has plundered those countries of their natural resources and taking there skilled workers is part of that Imperialism.
You may think thats just Liberal to oppose that, and to a point it is Liberal but i think its a lot better than supporting genocidal policies in the name of freedom or socialism...

 

[durruti02]

Also Durruti 02 if you want to start talking shit about closed shops I suggest you take a wee look at Northern Ireland where defacto closed shops saw the division of occupations along sectarian lines as jobs went to who you know, friends, "good lads and lass's". This exasperated class division, undercut working class militancy and helps explain why wages in such occupations were considerably lower than in the rest of the UK.

Now if we couple your closed shop with your "Sons and Daughters" (or the Royston Vasey) housing plan, you've got an incredibly explosive recipe for race/ethno national ghettoisation and conflict.

I notice a BNP councillor resigned, there's a job oppurtunity for you.

another lefty living the privalaged life who does not realise that the NHS/free education etc etc etc was fought for by trade unions .. who ONLY had power as they controlled labour thru the closed shop .. i constantly find this amazing that the so called left have such a weak understanding of labour history LET alone what will be neccessary to change the world .. you going to meditate capitalism away?? argue it away??? dream it away???? actually

you @s and lefties are all putchists anyway .. ( leninists blanquists all the same ) ... shame no one ever listens to you .. and are actually therefore a fuck site closer to facism than i am .. ironic that eh

 

[durruti02]

You and Durruti 02 are contempable gobshites, your obsession with immigration would make Richard Little John blush.

revo .. you really are slow .. my whole thing with immigration is an attack on the left and @ for being almost entirely alienated from the w/c .. you have not bothered to read these thread or attempot to understand what is being said

and really you think littlejohn and his kin are actually against this neo liberal process???? .. you really are slow .. it is them behind it you dingbat ..

 

[revol68]

another lefty living the privalaged life who does not realise that the NHS/free education etc etc etc was fought for by trade unions .. who ONLY had power as they controlled labour thru the closed shop .. i constantly find this amazing that the so called left have such a weak understanding of labour history LET alone what will be neccessary to change the world .. you going to meditate capitalism away?? argue it away??? dream it away???? actually

you @s and lefties are all putchists anyway .. ( leninists blanquists all the same ) ... shame no one ever listens to you .. and are actually therefore a fuck site closer to facism than i am .. ironic that eh

labour is only able to enforce demands on capital by the way of a closed shop? What fucking history books have you been reading thicko? Most of the labour history I've read talks about strikes, sabotage, go slows, and pickets, there is the odd mention of closed shops but they tend to be in small sectors of the economy and more often than not led to a stagnation of struggle as the Unions and Employers sought to maintain the status quo, leading to rampant sectionalism and "i'm alright Jack" attitudes, that would bite those workers in the arse when capital went on the all out offensive.

And exactly what previleged place am i sitting in? I'm writing this from my full time 13,000 a year crappy job.

 

[durruti02]

labour is only able to enforce demands on capital by the way of a closed shop? What fucking history books have you been reading thicko? Most of the labour history I've read talks about strikes, sabotage, go slows, and pickets, there is the odd mention of closed shops but they tend to be in small sectors of the economy and more often than not led to a stagnation of struggle as the Unions and Employers sought to maintain the status quo, leading to rampant sectionalism and "i'm alright Jack" attitudes, that would bite those workers in the arse when capital went on the all out offensive.

And exactly what previleged place am i sitting in? I'm writing this from my full time 13,000 a year crappy job.

as i thought .. not a clue ... not just the closed shop obvioulsy BUT .. without control of labour via closed shop etc, strikes, sabotage, go slows etc fail ..

 

[audiotech]

1 .. no i do not think that the BNP will get power soon .. however i think we are heading into difficlut economic times whether thru resource shortage or the rise of china .. and i think there will be a MAJOR reaction in this country from the state .. we need to be organised and prepared .. at the moment we are nopt even at first base

3 .. nonsense mate .. you do nothing to build unity .. thats why we are where we are

Boom and bust - what's new. I assume you'll be putting the blame on the Chinese as we enter the next capitalist crisis?

Do nothing to build unity? Pffft, what do you know about what I do? I suppose with all your crass statements on immigration that you're claiming now that you build unity. What utter nonsense you speak.

 

[revol68]

as i thought .. not a clue ... not just the closed shop obvioulsy BUT .. without control of labour via closed shop etc, strikes, sabotage, go slows etc fail ..

ah right and clearly we can just conflate them all into closed shops, eh? Maybe you should consider how come so many strikes in the seventies were wild cats and often in serious confrontation with the unions?

I'm not going to indulge your idiocy anymore but i will ask you to stop using the name of a commited anarcho syndicalist as your handle.

 

[durruti02]

ah right and clearly we can just conflate them all into closed shops, eh? Maybe you should consider how come so many strikes in the seventies were wild cats and often in serious confrontation with the unions?

I'm not going to indulge your idiocy anymore but i will ask you to stop using the name of a commited anarcho syndicalist as your handle.

revo you have been exposed enough times as hot air so whatever

but for others reading .. many of those wildcat strikes were OVER getting the closed shop .. it is basic unionism ( which R68 knows little of ) that without controlling labour inside and outside the workplace unions/the w/c have NO power .. in a period of full employment wildcat strikes and other actions do have an effect .. when the is a large reserve army they do not

in fact that is why immigration is on the agenda .. issues like Irish Ferries and Gate Gourmet and my own nearly 20 years as a manual shop steward in the public sector teach us if the bosses have the ability to bypass us by using other labour we have NO power .. this is the experiance of the last 25 years ..

 

[revol68]

oh for fucksake your clearly a fucking idiot who doesn't have a clue what a closed shop actually is.

A closed shop is not stopping scabs going through pickets or enforcing various cavaets on your contract that make it harder for them to replace you.

 

[tbaldwin]

oh for fucksake your clearly a fucking idiot who doesn't have a clue what a closed shop actually is.

.

I think i know.

Is it a shop with the shutters down?