cesar chavez and illegal immigration

[durruti02]

oh for fucksake your clearly a fucking idiot who doesn't have a clue what a closed shop actually is.

A closed shop is not stopping scabs going through pickets or enforcing various cavaets on your contract that make it harder for them to replace you.

i have worked in a closed shop for 18 years .. it is 100% union membership .. it is a reflection of the power of the workforce and ability to make managment do a certain extent what you all want .. where you have closed shop strikes are almost always more successfull than when you do not .. god i wish you would stick to things you actually know about like NI

 

[revol68]

We can argue and try and convince workers that their common interests are best served by co-operating in common struggles or we can force a closed shop on the employers and our fellow workers. Having a closed shop, or being in the position to impose one might seem to reflect a level of working class strength that you might wish existed at present but this looking at it with red tinted glasses makes it no less reactionary.

A closed shop operates in much the same way as sons and daughters housing, instead you get sons and daughters employed over other workers, so no room for immigrants at the shipyard, no room for catholics, no room for trouble making lefties - get the picture? You seem to forget also that most unions that had closed shops were essentially conservative over a range of issues. Me I'd rather we worked to convince our fellow workers that it was in our interests to unite in struggle against the bosses than ever endorse the closed shop. Course if their non-membership translates into them being scabs thats another story.

Thing is if you believe in direct democracy, equal participation of the workforce in reaching decisions and in the ability of workers to control their own struggles arguing for a closed shop is a nonsense. A closed shop is not conducive to any form of direct democracy and participation - as its based on exclusion it can't be.

Or I suppose we can have closed shops, only allow recruitment on the basis of 'trade' or a good word, and while we're at it we can blame immigrants on capitalist use of immigration to undercut every workers wages and conditions and call for stronger immigration control - essentially joining the chorus of reaction that screams about floods of immigrants stealing our jobs, our houses and undercutting our hard fought for terms and conditions.

But that has fuck all to do with a libertarian communist or class conscious analysis it has everything to do with pandering to a idealising of Alf Garnettesque working class reaction.

 

[revol68]

that was posted by a mate of mine on the libcom boards, thought it sums pretty well the problems with closed shops.

I'd also add that I see little point in forcing union membership on people because all your going to do is water down the militancy of your union, as such people aren't likely to be pushing for industrial action.

It's interesting that the people generally in favour of closed shops are tankies and trots because they love dreaming about taking over union leadership and so they aren't so concerned about militancy or iniative on the ground as they think with a 100% Union membership they can iniate or organise struggle from above through the Union channels.

 

[tbaldwin]

Or I suppose we can have closed shops, only allow recruitment on the basis of 'trade' or a good word, and while we're at it we can blame immigrants on capitalist use of immigration to undercut every workers wages and conditions and call for stronger immigration control - essentially joining the chorus of reaction that screams about floods of immigrants stealing our jobs, our houses and undercutting our hard fought for terms and conditions.

But that has fuck all to do with a libertarian communist or class conscious analysis it has everything to do with pandering to a idealising of Alf Garnettesque working class reaction.

The word reactionary is interesting...As is your claim to be for direct democracy!!!!!
You seem to be arguing that closed shops are bad cos there undemocratic on one hand and on the other arguing that policies on immigration should not be decided by what the majority of people want but by clever people like your good self.....

 

[durruti02]

A closed shop operates in much the same way as sons and daughters housing, instead you get sons and daughters employed over other workers, so no room for immigrants at the shipyard, no room for catholics, no room for trouble making lefties - get the picture?
Thing is if you believe in direct democracy, equal participation of the workforce in reaching decisions and in the ability of workers to control their own struggles arguing for a closed shop is a nonsense. A closed shop is not conducive to any form of direct democracy and participation - as its based on exclusion it can't be.

sorruy but this is all just rubbish .. it is academic ultra leftist tosh with no understanding of power in the workplace ... how do you think we get power in a workforce wevo?? will it??? and why and how do you think closed shops do not have direct democracy .. seet heart deals may do .. but that is NOT intrinsic in anyway in a closed shop .. which simply refers to the ideas that the shop controls access to labour

and the idea that it is wrong sons should NOT be employed is just total reactionary or liberal bollox!!! .. why the fuck should people see an immigrant from whereever whatever coliour race relegion etc etc get job over their kids .. go and have a baby mate and get a bit of perpective