campaign against welfare cuts and poverty

[frogwoman]

The freedom to starve is not really an option in developed nations. Historically, a poor law and workhouses are methods used to administer and control. These methods are of course resisted.

Pick a pocket, or two?

one of my friends went into a village over here and saw kids running round half clothed playing with a hoop and a stick, straight out of the nineteenth century. i quite regularly see beggars with what llook like appalling injuries, deformed hands, etc with their hands out for a bit of money, selling pretty much everything they have basically


there's a (minimal) welfare state here in moldova but it doesn't really work very well and even if people have jobs they don't have enough to live on. the "middle classes" are frequently that way only because they are working in two full time jobs.

public sector services, what we'd think of public sector stuff anyway, the upkeep of parks, council stuff - is often organised companies like fucking Orange Telecom ffs. I fucking despair at the news coming out of the UK tbh

given the (often induced) decline of just about every viable industry in the UK during the last 30 years, i fear for the place i really do

 

[trevhagl]

I felt incredibly guilty the first time I attempted to sign onto the dole, (without success) and viewed it as something "shameful"

this is what the govt and media friends aim for.

 

[trevhagl]

one of my friends went into a village over here and saw kids running round half clothed playing with a hoop and a stick, straight out of the nineteenth century. i quite regularly see beggars with what llook like appalling injuries, deformed hands, etc with their hands out for a bit of money, selling pretty much everything they have basically


there's a (minimal) welfare state here in moldova but it doesn't really work very well and even if people have jobs they don't have enough to live on. the "middle classes" are frequently that way only because they are working in two full time jobs.

public sector services, what we'd think of public sector stuff anyway, the upkeep of parks, council stuff - is often organised companies like fucking Orange Telecom ffs. I fucking despair at the news coming out of the UK tbh

given the (often induced) decline of just about every viable industry in the UK during the last 30 years, i fear for the place i really do

that will be the UK in 3 years time. They are already stopping income support for parents with kids who turn 12, leaving them to beg on JSA and satisfy the same conditions as other JSA claimants ie take any job or else...

 

[okgirl]

The amount doesn't matter (no benefit pays "much" in real terms, because few of them are actually linked to prices), it's that you receive them at all.

And yet your rhetoric is:
"I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on."
Which seems to say the opposite.
If you're actually being selective about which benefits you're talking about, then at least have the sense to say what you disagree with and why, rather than making dumb generalisations.

Those "some people", by which I take you to refer to the small amount of "perennial work-avoiders", will always exist, but they're an insignificant minority cost-wise. It would be better, and more profitable/preventive of fraud, to pay attention to benefit fraud, particularly organised fraud by criminal gangs and Housing Benefit fraud by landlords, rather than whining about the small amount (in comparison) sucked up by a hundred thousand-odd work-avoiders.

Every employer I've ever worked for, from the army through the Civil Service to the private sector, has had the same problem. It's generally been an issue of systems failure (i.e. the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing) rather than deliberate fraud or money being wasted on "undeserving" causes, though.

IMO it's easy to blame "scroungers", "immigrants" and the socially-stigmatised. It's not so easy to ask yourself why politicians (of whatever party) are so keen for you to believe that a particular group or groups are "guilty" and should be punished over and above anyone else.
It's called "scapegoating", and it's usually a ploy to get you to look the other way while the politician bends you over and sticks his cock up your arse.

My views are based on my experiences and people that I know. You are wrong about the rhetoric too, one can be for cuts in benefits and still be an advocate for them but not all. Benefits are too easily given and in some cases are too generous. I admire the Irish leader recently that said they would have to cut child benefit. When times are hard it calls for tough measures FOR ALL and not just the tax payer!

 

[okgirl]

You're a fucking idiot. Fuck off

You talk bollocks! go take a long jump off a short pier.

 

[okgirl]

Ah, but I wouldn't put myself up for election, because unlike Mr. Barnbrook (or any other party politician for that matter) I'm not a preacher for a cause. I'm not trying to sell snake oil.

Well, we'll never know, will we?

Interesting assumption, marred only by the fact that you're completely wrong.
Why would I "automatically regard" someone who was anti-immigration as a member of the BNP? That'd be a rather foolish thing to do unless I already knew their position on at least a dozen other points of politics.
Perhaps you fall into that horrible category of people who automatically believe that they can infer the character of a person from a single point of information?

Ah, what political wonks unflatteringly refer to as a "turd", which are also known as "floaters", I believe.

No it isn't! What a vivid immagination you have? all parties evolve and have done for years. I vote for whichever policies are right for me at that time. At the moment I have no faith in any of the three main parties and will probably abstain or vote for one of the other fringe parties.

 

[Psychonaut]

I admire the Irish leader recently that said they would have to cut child benefit. When times are hard it calls for tough measures FOR ALL and not just the tax payer!

You do know what the standard dole payment is in Ireland right?

204 euros.

thats £177, nearly treble UK levels.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

You do know what the standard dole payment is in Ireland right?

204 euros.

thats £177, nearly treble UK levels.

she doesn't know her arse from her elbow...

 

[Wolveryeti]

You do know what the standard dole payment is in Ireland right?

204 euros.

thats £177, nearly treble UK levels.

AFAIK the Irish don't get housing benefit which makes the comparison much less favourable.

 

[terratech]

Invitation to Unemployment Movement.

We would like to advise every one concerned that the unemployment movement website is open for those who are interested in creating a movement to protect themselves from welfare reforms. Our aim is to create a national movement from the ground up not connected to political parties or organisations, unions or ngo`s.

What we provide are resources to socially network, blog and discuss issues in a forum and are not so arrogant to believe the website is a polished or a finished item and so will be relying on new members ideas and suggestions.

For us claiming any benefit is a Right and not charity; it is enshrined in Law as the right to life. We have nothing to be ashamed of, we are not spongers, we not criminals or deviants, we are unemployed because of the economic incompetence of a few.

We look forward to your visit and interest at http://unemploymentmovement.com

If you have any difficulty joining please contact us with the contact form or you can read our FAQ which may point to the problem.

 

[treelover]

Is this going to have a 'physical' presence?

 

[terratech]

Hi Treelover....we very much desire for the unemployment movement to have a 'physical' presence`. Our first objective thoe is to become recognised and grow interest/membership. With the websites built around social networking effectively this will work hand in hand with membership growth as at its centre is Group involvement/start-up.

 

[Falcon]

You do know, don't you, that the country is £800 billion in debt? That we've no idea how to fund the £213 billion pension gap? We have no idea how to pay the mushrooming elderly care bills? We've no idea how to deal with the lack of tax receipts from a shrinking number of people of working age to keep the schools and basic services running? Everyone was rather hoping the rich would pay for all that, except the liabilities are so huge there isn't enough to do so even if you bankrupted them.

I think you need to brace yourself for a disappointment ...

 

[frogwoman]

Funny then that the welfare state was created right after the second world war, when debt as a proportion of gdp was even higher than it is now, in fact hundreds of times higher, (butchers posted a graph which is on another thread) also that in the states, social spending programs such as the new deal were created during the great depression, you know, that period of time when the us dollar was virtually valueless.


I totally agree that people need to be helped to work where possible, but to do that there actually needs to be job opportunities created rather than lambasting everyone for not working and then not providing any solution to the problem of unemployment. how exactly are we meant to come out of recession this way, when there is so little in the way of skilled industry to provide for peoples futures.

 

[Falcon]

Funny then that the welfare state was created right after the second world war, when debt as a proportion of gdp was even higher than it is now, in fact hundreds of times higher, (butchers posted a graph which is on another thread) also that in the states, social spending programs such as the new deal were created during the great depression, you know, that period of time when the us dollar was virtually valueless.

Not really. If your income was going to double every 10 years for the next 40 years, then double again in the next 30 years, you could afford a very nice mortgage right now. Sadly, we never paid the mortgage off, in fact we increased it. Our income is about to halve every 15 years. What would you do ?

 

[frogwoman]

the people who started the welfare state didn't know that income was going to double every 10 years (which for many people, it didn't anyway)

 

[Falcon]

the people who started the welfare state didn't know that income was going to double every 10 years (which for many people, it didn't anyway)

I refer to energy income, not financial income. There was a general expectation that peace and prosperity would provide the growth necessary to support the scheme. The only uncertainty was by how much it would rise (spectacularly, as it turned out), not whether it would rise.

Most people (including, I suppose, most on this thread) don't even think about it. Many who will witness the death of the welfare state (and a lot of oil dependent commercial activities, like aviation) don't know that the energy income upon which it depends is going to start halving every 15 years.

It will halve anyway.

 

[belboid]

oh god, thick tory cunt tries to destroy another thread with his Peak Oil gibberish

 

[frogwoman]

you can't predict the future with that degere of certainty.

 

[Falcon]

you can't predict the future with that degere of certainty.

There is something richly ironic about someone who is so suspicious of anything to do with capitalism swallowing capitalist oil sector propaganda so effortlessly. We have spent millions of pounds on disinformation to ensure you think so - oil company shares are based on estimates of 30 year profits, and will collapse the moment the market realises what is happening. Sadly - you can.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not "so suspicious of anything to do with capitalism", there are a lot of good things about capitalism tbh.

and who's "we"?

 

[treelover]

Corporate Watch on the 'unemployment business'

CW have brought a very important and useful document on all the different companies benefiting and making truly vast profits from NL's and soon to to be the Tories welfare 'reforms' including stuff on A4E and yes the Sally Army who plan to roll out 30 hour cheap labour schemes complete with 'motivational' speakers to encourage the unemployed, etc into the right attitude.




http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3572

http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=3572

 

[CH1]

Welfare to Work

Welfare to Work on ESA
Just in from my interview with "Melissa" NO SURNAME ALLOWED at the Ingeus training establishment at 5th floor Hannibal House, Elephant and Castle Shoping Centre London SE1.

I had taken the precaution of downloading the Ingeus accounts from Companies House (attached to this post)

Melissa did not really understand my question when I asked her why the company had made a transfer payment to Australia of £1.7 million in 2007, and £3.3 million in 2008 - greater than the staff wage bill in both cases.

This is clearly the worst type of PPP - 100% + mark-up on staff costs! Why is the blessed JobCentre Plus, quoted by Gordon every week in Prime Minister's Questions, not taken in-house, thus saving 50% of the cost????

And why are a Queensland based company even able to rip off the British government? Queensland is a funny place. They had an anti-immigrant senator who was virtually illiterate for a while. I bet the Ingeus staff at Elephant and Castle have not been told that! (They are mainly black)

Fortunately as I am "in touch" with both the psychiatric service (SLAM) and the Brixton Job Centre DEA (Disability Employment Adviser), Melissa decided she would recommend I was not ready for work, and when I was the DEA could help me do my "action plan". Phew! A narrow escape from 5 weeks of pulverising boredom being taught how to apply to be a Wetherspoons barman etc etc.

Quote from the attached accounts: "Ingeus Europe is one of the leading providers of Welfare to Work services in the UK, France, Germany and Sweden."

Also: "Credit risk - the company has contracts with related agencies, and therefore is considered to have minimal credit risk"

The dividend last year to the shareholders was £1.4 million - just shy of the wage bill in itself.

These sort of people are in a similar league to Bernard Madoff in my view.

Can Cameron/Clegg sort this one out please, like Boris has sorted out Tube Lines - by buying the company and closing it down!!!

Final note: ALL the assetts of the company are mortgaged on debenture to HSBC (Australia) Limited - so tough if you thought the Job Centre would get the computers!

 

[CH1]

Attachments are missing

I did load the attachments.
They are pdf files - maybe incompatible with this board.
If anyone DOES want the accounts, if you send me a personal message, with your email address, I will email them.

Thank you.

 

[moon23]

You do know, don't you, that the country is £800 billion in debt? That we've no idea how to fund the £213 billion pension gap? We have no idea how to pay the mushrooming elderly care bills? We've no idea how to deal with the lack of tax receipts from a shrinking number of people of working age to keep the schools and basic services running? Everyone was rather hoping the rich would pay for all that, except the liabilities are so huge there isn't enough to do so even if you bankrupted them.

I think you need to brace yourself for a disappointment ...

I'm sure their banners and petitions will change all this.

 

[shagnasty]

this maybe of interest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/10159717.stm

could it be the tide turning or just another load of bollocks

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Civil servants pay revealed, here's the top dogs at the DWP and what they receive. I don't think this included expenses, which would also be paid on top. Leigh Lewis's pay is the equivalent to 2,979 weeks worth of JSA at current rates, that's 57 years worth of JSA......

Sir Leigh Lewis Permanent Secretary £195,000 - £199,999

Hunada Nouss Finance Director £165,000 - £169,999

Joe Harley IT Director General & Chief Information Officer £245,000 - £249,999

Chris Last HR Director General £180,000 - £184,999

Mel Groves Project Director, Welfare & Wellbeing £175,000 - £179,999 Left DWP 30/4/2010

Stephen Holt Director of Change Management £160,000 - £164,999

Bill Gunnyeon Director of Health Work and Wellbeing, Chief Medical Adviser and Chief Scientist £155,000 - £159,999

 

[shagnasty]

Are they starting to get the jitters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/27/benefits-health-test-review

I imagine what is scaring them is stories of people with real disabilities being found fit for work

 

[dynamicbaddog]

Are they starting to get the jitters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jul/27/benefits-health-test-review

I imagine what is scaring them is stories of people with real disabilities being found fit for work

The transfer of IB claimants to ESA begins in earnest next April and they are probally worried about where they are going to find the cash for all the appeals from ex IB claimants being deemed fit for work.
I'm glad they are at least starting to see some common sense rather than blindly following the Daily Mail 'scroungers' line (just a few months ago the DM were reporting that only 1 in 10 IB/ESA claims are genuine)

 

[treelover]

even if it just some 'tinkering' it comes to something when it is the Tories who acknowledge there is something fundamentally wrong with ESA, NL wanted to tighten it up even more, (and i think still do.)The authoritarianism of NL was/is obscene, they should take a long hard look at themselves. it will get worse when the DLA tests come in, as someone on CIF noted many people have been moved out of the institutions and only survive becasue of DLA and masses of care, the Condems are going to realise just how expensive it will be to 'reinstitutionalise' many of these people when it all goes belly up.