campaign against welfare cuts and poverty

[Paulie Tandoori]

Apart from a couple of comma's missing, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the grammar.

Not only does it make perfectly good sense but the sentiments are absolutely right too!

but it doesn't.

I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.

I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing. - so you're not backing what "kind of thing"? welfare cuts, which is what you were talking about immediately before. so you don't back welfare cuts? or you do but can't explain yourself.

you know people who have been living on them for many years do you? so do i. i've worked for the last 25 years on advising people about how to seek support when things go awry and its a real pity when the sins of a few shape the policy for the many. you might want to think about that.

The gravy train has to end somewhere.[/I]

which gravy train is that? the one where you aim to maintain a flexible and fluid pool of labour to keep people in unstable work paying shit money, whilst taking vast bonuses at the expense of others....

 

[okgirl]

look, just fuck off

No you look and you fuck off

 

[okgirl]

Let me guess, most of them are immigrants?


Do you get tax credits/child credits?

We get child tax credits that do not amount to much. You must understand that I am not against benefits far from it, I have indeed been on income support myself and hated it, I could not wait to come off it, but for some people it's an all too easy option, they get used to it. There should be a disincentive.

I won't tell you the type of work I'm involved with, but I know that millions of money is wasted.

 

[trevhagl]

We get child tax credits that do not amount to much. You must understand that I am not against benefits far from it, I have indeed been on income support myself and hated it, I could not wait to come off it, but for some people it's an all too easy option, they get used to it. There should be a disincentive.

I won't tell you the type of work I'm involved with, but I know that millions of money is wasted.

incapacity medical doctor? Dole supervisor?

 

[trevhagl]

i think anyone who is anti welfare state should be offered a document to sign saying they will never ever accept tax credits, dole, incapacity etc .

If you really are that 'proud' then you should be willing to starve to death for the state...

 

[okgirl]

Let me guess, most of them are immigrants?


Do you get tax credits/child credits?

Why the sarcasm about immigrants? actually both.

I would come down on "our own" just as hard as immigrants.

 

[okgirl]

incapacity medical doctor? Dole supervisor?

I'm flattered

 

[okgirl]

Where is the sudden influx of twats coming from?

From the same twat you came from

 

[belboid]

you're his sister????

 

[trevhagl]

Why the sarcasm about immigrants? actually both.

I would come down on "our own" just as hard as immigrants.

so the time you spend on income support, what would you have done if the Govt took your benefits away? Would you have just punched yerself in the face and said "damn right, serves me right for not having a job!"??

 

[okgirl]

but it doesn't.

I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on.

I most certainly will not be backing this kind of thing. - so you're not backing what "kind of thing"? welfare cuts, which is what you were talking about immediately before. so you don't back welfare cuts? or you do but can't explain yourself.

you know people who have been living on them for many years do you? so do i. i've worked for the last 25 years on advising people about how to seek support when things go awry and its a real pity when the sins of a few shape the policy for the many. you might want to think about that.which gravy train is that? the one where you aim to maintain a flexible and fluid pool of labour to keep people in unstable work paying shit money, whilst taking vast bonuses at the expense of others....

Forgive me I thought this thread was about trying to encourage some sort of demonstration against cuts? That's what I'm against.

 

[okgirl]

Maybe he's offering her a film part?

If you put yourself up for election like Barnbrook I wonder how many votes you would get???

Maybe as many as Barnbrook??? I don't think so.

You fall into that horrible category of people that automatically regard people against more immigration as BNP voters. Not so. I speak to people all the time and even immigrants are saying the same thing.

I am, and have always been a floating voter.

 

[belboid]

I am, and have always been a floater.

corrected for you

 

[okgirl]

i think anyone who is anti welfare state should be offered a document to sign saying they will never ever accept tax credits, dole, incapacity etc .

If you really are that 'proud' then you should be willing to starve to death for the state...

What kinda of garbage is that? I pay in I demand my money back end of

 

[frogwoman]

So you'd prefer to see people starve to death then? because, you know, that's what happens without a benefit system

 

[okgirl]

i think anyone who is anti welfare state should be offered a document to sign saying they will never ever accept tax credits, dole, incapacity etc .

If you really are that 'proud' then you should be willing to starve to death for the state...

Oh dear the mind boggles!

 

[ViolentPanda]

We get child tax credits that do not amount to much.

The amount doesn't matter (no benefit pays "much" in real terms, because few of them are actually linked to prices), it's that you receive them at all.

You must understand that I am not against benefits far from it...

And yet your rhetoric is:
"I think it's time some welfare cuts were made. I know people that have been living on them for many years. They have families and the welfare dependancy goes on and on."
Which seems to say the opposite.
If you're actually being selective about which benefits you're talking about, then at least have the sense to say what you disagree with and why, rather than making dumb generalisations.

I have indeed been on income support myself and hated it, I could not wait to come off it, but for some people it's an all too easy option, they get used to it. There should be a disincentive.

Those "some people", by which I take you to refer to the small amount of "perennial work-avoiders", will always exist, but they're an insignificant minority cost-wise. It would be better, and more profitable/preventive of fraud, to pay attention to benefit fraud, particularly organised fraud by criminal gangs and Housing Benefit fraud by landlords, rather than whining about the small amount (in comparison) sucked up by a hundred thousand-odd work-avoiders.

I won't tell you the type of work I'm involved with, but I know that millions of money is wasted.

Every employer I've ever worked for, from the army through the Civil Service to the private sector, has had the same problem. It's generally been an issue of systems failure (i.e. the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing) rather than deliberate fraud or money being wasted on "undeserving" causes, though.

IMO it's easy to blame "scroungers", "immigrants" and the socially-stigmatised. It's not so easy to ask yourself why politicians (of whatever party) are so keen for you to believe that a particular group or groups are "guilty" and should be punished over and above anyone else.
It's called "scapegoating", and it's usually a ploy to get you to look the other way while the politician bends you over and sticks his cock up your arse.

 

[Blagsta]

What kinda of garbage is that? I pay in I demand my money back end of

You're a fucking idiot. Fuck off

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you put yourself up for election like Barnbrook I wonder how many votes you would get???

Ah, but I wouldn't put myself up for election, because unlike Mr. Barnbrook (or any other party politician for that matter) I'm not a preacher for a cause. I'm not trying to sell snake oil.

Maybe as many as Barnbrook??? I don't think so.

Well, we'll never know, will we?

You fall into that horrible category of people that automatically regard people against more immigration as BNP voters. Not so. I speak to people all the time and even immigrants are saying the same thing.

Interesting assumption, marred only by the fact that you're completely wrong.
Why would I "automatically regard" someone who was anti-immigration as a member of the BNP? That'd be a rather foolish thing to do unless I already knew their position on at least a dozen other points of politics.
Perhaps you fall into that horrible category of people who automatically believe that they can infer the character of a person from a single point of information?

I am, and have always been a floating voter.

Ah, what political wonks unflatteringly refer to as a "turd", which are also known as "floaters", I believe.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you'd prefer to see people starve to death then? because, you know, that's what happens without a benefit system

Or, at least, without a minimally-assured social welfare system.

 

[williammartin]

Or, at least, without a minimally-assured social welfare system.

Which we no longer have in Britain.

 

[trevhagl]

What kinda of garbage is that? I pay in I demand my money back end of

So do lots of people i've met but thanks to the right wing tabloids scaremongering, thousands if not millions of genuinely ill people and ppeople who've paid NI contributions all their life are being denied what they're due.

The government (and certainly not the tabloids) no longer care whether someone who has had their money stopped has paid NI or is seriously ill. It is now a blanket assault on anyone claiming benefits - hit first ask questions later. If they appeal, they appeal, if not, they starve and "who cares"

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which we no longer have in Britain.

I think this depends on perspective.
From a "service user" perspective I'd most definitely agree that given the amount of "holes" in the "safety net" that people are slipping through, what with payment stoppages, payment failures, poor claim-handling, dismal medical examination, penalisation on whim etc, we don't currently have even the minimally-assured safety net that the Poor relief system provided 100 years ago.
From a neo-liberal governmental perspective, though, the "safety net" still exists in way too solid a form to allow it to stand, hence the manipulation of the media to project discourses centred around themes of "scroungers" and "undeserving claimants" living it up suckling on the government tit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So do lots of people i've met but thanks to the right wing tabloids scaremongering, thousands if not millions of genuinely ill people and ppeople who've paid NI contributions all their life are being denied what they're due.

Not just that, Trev, whole generations of people were indoctrinated to believe that claiming back what they'd paid in was akin to some form of moral dereliction. I felt incredibly guilty when I first claimed DLA, even though part of the reason I ended up claiming it was due to serving my country.
It took my wife and I three years to talk my dad into claiming DLA, and most of his generation and my generation are like that. The government (and in fact all governments since Beveridge) have made a mint out of people being too proud to demand what's rightfully theirs.

The government (and certainly not the tabloids) no longer care whether someone who has had their money stopped has paid NI or is seriously ill. It is now a blanket assault on anyone claiming benefits - hit first ask questions later. If they appeal, they appeal, if not, they starve and "who cares"

The government hopes that fewer and fewer people care, that some kind of neo-Victorian settlement separating the "deserving" from the "undeserving" poor can be reached that shifts the burden of cost back primarily onto communities and helps prevent any sort of thoroughgoing class and/or community cohesion.
The best way to stop us fighting them is to convince us to fight among ourselves.

 

[trevhagl]

Not just that, Trev, whole generations of people were indoctrinated to believe that claiming back what they'd paid in was akin to some form of moral dereliction. I felt incredibly guilty when I first claimed DLA, even though part of the reason I ended up claiming it was due to serving my country.
It took my wife and I three years to talk my dad into claiming DLA, and most of his generation and my generation are like that. The government (and in fact all governments since Beveridge) have made a mint out of people being too proud to demand what's rightfully theirs.

The government hopes that fewer and fewer people care, that some kind of neo-Victorian settlement separating the "deserving" from the "undeserving" poor can be reached that shifts the burden of cost back primarily onto communities and helps prevent any sort of thoroughgoing class and/or community cohesion.
The best way to stop us fighting them is to convince us to fight among ourselves.

Not only that but the rules arenow so complicated and stress inducing that many people just don't even bother. My mate has lost 2 jobs , once he had redundancy and once he had an inheritance to fall back on so he just didn't put himself thru the stress of claiming

 

[audiotech]

So you'd prefer to see people starve to death then? because, you know, that's what happens without a benefit system

The freedom to starve is not really an option in developed nations. Historically, a poor law and workhouses are methods used to administer and control. These methods are of course resisted.

Pick a pocket, or two?

 

[williammartin]

I think this depends on perspective.
.

My perspective is the sheer number of people being refused benefit or having to wait months for it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My perspective is the sheer number of people being refused benefit or having to wait months for it.

Well precisely. It's classic oppositional "us versus them" politics, where, as usual, they hold all the high cards.
I suspect that even bad publicity on the level that the Benefits Integrity Project gained aren't going to shift the politicians on this, especially as they can excuse their behaviour via the need to make savings, even when those savings (i.e. via job cuts) are directly responsible for some of the more egregious welfare cluster-fucks of recent times.

 

[trevhagl]

Well precisely. It's classic oppositional "us versus them" politics, where, as usual, they hold all the high cards.
I suspect that even bad publicity on the level that the Benefits Integrity Project gained aren't going to shift the politicians on this, especially as they can excuse their behaviour via the need to make savings, even when those savings (i.e. via job cuts) are directly responsible for some of the more egregious welfare cluster-fucks of recent times.

sad but true. Classic example of BULLIES. They're poor, they can't fight back. But if we showed any humanity the media will have us....

 

[frogwoman]

I felt incredibly guilty the first time I attempted to sign onto the dole, (without success) and viewed it as something "shameful"