Athos
Well-Known Member
It would depend on the level of their past and ongoing involvement and ideological commitment.
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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
It would depend on the level of their past and ongoing involvement and ideological commitment.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
I guess though since if she comes back she will be pushing her kid around wearing a hijab and not talking to unbelievers I doubt anyone other than her kids teachers or her imman will have much to do with her. Or she might be well want to engage in jihad. Who knows?
She left to join when IS were in full flow, not at the start. She would have known about all the beheadinsg of innocents and mass murder of those they decided were unpure. She would have known about what happened to the Yazidi, its not like she could have blamed a bias media IS themselves were the media in all this. She could have been in no doubt about those aspects of IS life, but...
Yes, she was an impressionable child. But this is the thing if she was that impressionable in the first place what would she have become when she was fully immersed in an entire set up which is designed to brainwash with indoctrination. I don't know what she is like now, but I say it again it would be very strange if she didn't hold beliefs that the acts carried out by IS were justifiable.
What I'm suggesting (and I've said this numerous times) is that shoudk she make it back to the UK she needs rehabilitation and at the same time very close monitoring from the security services. Just as if she was a front line IS fighter returning to the UK
I'm sorry I just don't see the comparison. If there is a Christian cult that start doing the same then yes I would apply the same logic.
Risk needs to be evaluated though. She is a greater risk because of her background. We can't plan for risk we don't see, all we can do is plan for the bloody obvious risk that she is.
Classic urban innit?
I just don't want to sit next to her on a tube but you'd be fine with that. I think that's all we're disagreeing on. Anyway lunchtime.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
It was that almost as much as being unfazed by heads in bins.She's had two babies die in the last three months and she's due to give birth any day, but let's not imagine that her grief and her hormones might be clouding her judgement about anything right now
"Had two die on me, let's immediately produce another baby jihadist..."
Who knows what she'll do when / if she gets back?
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
That's the whole problem.
That's pretty fucked man. Babies are just babies, there are no baby jihadists. We also have no idea what she went through and how much choice if any she had in ending up pregnant. We just don't know.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Zombiedom then, that's not death
likesfish
You can't park here sir
but enough about the lib dems
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Valuable contribution to the debate there, well done.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Oh, ffs.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Thanks, I thought so too.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
Shamima Begum was groomed. She deserves the chance of rehabilitation | Michael Segalov
It's one thing to say that the school failed in their duty of care, or that it took far too long for the likes of Twitter to work out what role social media was playing in Daesh's recruitment strategy, but it doesn't follow that framing all of this in terms of grooming and brainwashing necessarily makes sense either.
While there was a sexual aspect to the role Begum was recruited into when she was just below the age of consent, describing her as brainwashed or groomed seems dangerously close to ascribing no agency to teenagers. What other subcultures do young people join that could be viewed this way: queer scenes, social movements, environmental protests, political organisations... All of these are open to abuse, but they are also places where young people begin to make political, ideological and sexual choices for themselves. Making your own way from east London to war-torn Syria seems like a process that involves a degree of agency. It's hard to imagine radical social change that didn't involve young people subverting social expectations in a way that provoked accusations that they were being brainwashed.
However young she might seem to the Urban75 demographic myself included, she is an adult now and nothing she is saying narrates this as a case of abuse. Nothing suggests that she saw herself as a victim until elements in Daesh became corrupt (and tortured her husband in prison?). Making all of this about what 'she deserves' as the Guardian does just seems bizarre at this stage. There don't seem to be any plans afoot to withdraw her citizenship. Clearly, as people like her make their way here, the British state will have to decide how to deal with them, and the rest of us will have to take positions on what implications this has for our own concerns about legal/political rights and public safety.
It's one thing to say that the school failed in their duty of care, or that it took far too long for the likes of Twitter to work out what role social media was playing in Daesh's recruitment strategy, but it doesn't follow that framing all of this in terms of grooming and brainwashing necessarily makes sense either.
While there was a sexual aspect to the role Begum was recruited into when she was just below the age of consent, describing her as brainwashed or groomed seems dangerously close to ascribing no agency to teenagers. What other subcultures do young people join that could be viewed this way: queer scenes, social movements, environmental protests, political organisations... All of these are open to abuse, but they are also places where young people begin to make political, ideological and sexual choices for themselves. Making your own way from east London to war-torn Syria seems like a process that involves a degree of agency. It's hard to imagine radical social change that didn't involve young people subverting social expectations in a way that provoked accusations that they were being brainwashed.
However young she might seem to the Urban75 demographic myself included, she is an adult now and nothing she is saying narrates this as a case of abuse. Nothing suggests that she saw herself as a victim until elements in Daesh became corrupt (and tortured her husband in prison?). Making all of this about what 'she deserves' as the Guardian does just seems bizarre at this stage. There don't seem to be any plans afoot to withdraw her citizenship. Clearly, as people like her make their way here, the British state will have to decide how to deal with them, and the rest of us will have to take positions on what implications this has for our own concerns about legal/political rights and public safety.
Shamima Begum was groomed. She deserves the chance of rehabilitation | Michael Segalov
Guardian Left weigh in, with Michaeal Segalov,and as expected its the argument she was groomed, etc.
I wonder if he would be so sympathetic about say, Beate Zschäpe, who was 16 when she took the turn to the far right and met Uwe Mundlos.
Guardian Left weigh in, with Michaeal Segalov,and as expected its the argument she was groomed, etc.
I wonder if he would be so sympathetic about say, Beate Zschäpe, who was 16 when she took the turn to the far right and met Uwe Mundlos.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
What bollocks. She's 19 and unrepentent about fucking off to join a terrorist "state" who enslaved, raped, and murdered thousands of other women and who would do the same to you in a heartbeat. She seems to have happily engaged with what the scum were doing. She says she escaped because she saw no future for the caliphate, not because she thought they were cunts.
Pretty disgusting what you're doing here. Trying to crowbar in your agenda laden misogyny angle. The only difference between her and a male who'd done the same is that she's pregnant.
Absolutely nothing should be afforded her by the government. If she does manage to make it back here somehow her child should be removed and adopted whilst she is imprisoned until a) she shows some remorse, and b) she has been 'deradicalised' (if that's possible).
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kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
i think we have a pretty good idea that when she went to Syria she knew, and made a deliberate choice to participate in, what was a breeding programme for Jihadists. the propaganda for that was very clear, all of the girls and women who went out to IS knew beforehand that they would be married (by IS) to an IS fighter, that they would be set up in a house and that it was about about making lots of babies as quickly as possible.
depending on the individual they were also promised either jobs - like midwives etc.. or just the suburban dream of 5 kids, a Toyota Hilux, a dutiful hubby who comes home after a days killing, and a slave. you know, just like any girl wants...
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Don't be a fucking idiot.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
She smuggled herself into Syria so that she could marry an IS fighter. Whatever she is, she isn't 'innocent'.
Sure. We can surmise that was the case, though I'm guessing she would have seen it more about becoming the wife of a glorious solider of Allah and all the wonderful things that come with it rather than participating in a breeding program.
Then again we all knew what we wanted to do when we were 15 until we suddenly realised we didn't want to do it all. From the interview it seems she was pretty cool with it all, but really we don't know what has actually happened to her in those years (all the mad shit that would have become normal) and we also don't know how many ears were listening in on her when she gave those interviews.
As I say, we don't know.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
It's not entirely clear what crime she's actually guilty of, if any. This might be one reason to consider not offering her any more consular support to get back here than might be expected by a nineteen-year old who missplaced their plane ticket in Faliraki.
She went of her own volition to join a proven head choppers death cult, how can she be innocent.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The very act of going to Syria to join up with IS constitutes a crime now in the UK.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
My client does not deny that she went to Syria to marry a member of a proven head chopper death cult. But I put it to the court that no criminal offence has been commited unless it can be shown she materially supported the aforementioned head chopper death cult.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No she's not. She's in a refugee camp in northern Syria. She has had plenty of opportunity to safely denounce daesh snd hasn't done so.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
*judge pulls lawyer to one side*
"you do know the law here, yes?'
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