British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Pickman's model]

It does, in the UK. Her peers - the rest of us - have (broadly) decided, through the law, what justice looks like. In Eastern Syria or western Iraq however the 'community concensus' might look different and work in a different way...

your justice seems to be sink or swim if you're abroad.

 

[Teaboy]

He says, yes she should come back... maybe we can learn from it.

Yeah and he also blames her parents, not explicitly but still fairly obviously. I also blame the parents.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I agree with bits of this but I really don't give a fuck if she's never rehabilitated as long as she spends the rest of her life in prison. That's not going to happen though but it's what I believe to be the appropriate sanction for someone who is unrepentant about facilitating mass rape and genocide; doesn't seem to give a fuck about over 3000 Yazidis still missing, and thinks beheading people that you don't like is "ok".

Absent the possibility of a genuine life sentence I would consider justice to have been served if she was executed by Iraq or Syria.

Yeah... I think that falls more into the 'revenge' vision of justice. But fair enough, at least I know where you stand.

What about the stripping of citizenship? Are you ambivalent on this or for/against?

 

[SpookyFrank]

whose law? Her and her cohort destroyed the rule of law in Syria, and the populations there are only now trying to pick up the pieces. She is where she is because of where she put herself- prima facie justice is being delivered.

Evidently they've changed latin since I learned the meaning of that phrase.

 

[Athos]

So what is ridiculously facile about the comparison?

The radically different geopolitical circumstances for one thing.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It does, in the UK. Her peers - the rest of us - have (broadly) decided, through the law, what justice looks like. In Eastern Syria or western Iraq however the 'community concensus' might look different and work in a different way...

Er. What? Have we? What did we broadly decide? Did I miss a meeting again? Fucking Google calender.

 

[newbie]

her and her cohort? three schoolgirls from london did all this? this may be your justice but it's a bit of an ask to say this is any other sort of justice: and by justice you seem to mean retribution.

her cohort is the group she travelled to join, lived with as they got booted out of one town after another and now lives with in a prison camp. As you knew.
I didn't mean retribution but the local populations might well want that from foreigners who went there to murder, rape and enslave - would you criticise them if they did?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yeah and he also blames her parents, not explicitly but still fairly obviously. I also blame the parents.

He talked about her environment and the people around her to be fair, which could include the school. And wasn't about blame so much as "how has this happened?".

 

[Spymaster]

your justice seems to be sink or swim if you're abroad.

It's certainly mine. If you deliberately fuck with another country's laws, be prepared to face that country's justice.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's certainly mine. If you deliberately fuck with another country's laws, be prepared to face that country's justice.

You don't have a problem with say, someone getting the death penalty for smuggling weed in Thailand then?

 

[newbie]

Killing all your victims would seem to be a foolproof way of sidestepping this macabre interpretation of the concept of justice.

Are you saying British ideas of 'justice' should have precedence in the Kurdish controlled area of Syria she's in?

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah... I think that falls more into the 'revenge' vision of justice. But fair enough, at least I know where you stand.

What about the stripping of citizenship? Are you ambivalent on this or for/against?

In cases like this I don't care. In others I may strongly disapprove.

 

[kebabking]

your justice seems to be sink or swim if you're abroad.

More a mix of 'when in Rome..' and my abhorance of cultural imperialism...

 

[Teaboy]

He talked about her environment and the people around her to be fair, which could include the school. And wasn't about blame so much as "how has this happened?".

Yeah because he is aware enough not to explicitly say it but he meant it, rightly so.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Are you saying British ideas of 'justice' should have precedence in the Kurdish controlled area of Syria she's in?

Ah, you were quoting Syrian law then? Not just your own half-baked theories on the subject?

 

[SpackleFrog]

In cases like this I don't care. In others I may strongly disapprove.

Ok, thanks, I'm done with questions. I think your views are quite confused though, for the record.

 

[SpookyFrank]

More a mix of 'when in Rome..' and my abhorance of cultural imperialism...

You abhor imperialism? Weren't you in the army?

 

[newbie]

Ah, you were quoting Syrian law then? Not just your own half-baked theories on the subject?

there is no Syrian law outside Assad controlled areas, and inside those it appears to be pretty arbitrary.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah because he is aware enough not to explicitly say it but he meant it, rightly so.

tbh I would rank 'blame the parents' alongside 'blame the internet' as seeking a simple answer where one may not exist. They may share some of the blame, and they may not really. We don't know.

 

[SpookyFrank]

there is no Syrian law outside Assad controlled areas, and inside those it appears to be pretty arbitrary.

So your conflation of mob justice with due process according to local standards was false then? OK that's all we needed, thanks for your help.

 

[Spymaster]

You don't have a problem with say, someone getting the death penalty for smuggling weed in Thailand then?

I'm against manifestly unjust laws but that's subjective isn't it? In the case of drug smuggling penalties in the far east I often have little sympathy for those who know what the penalites are but go ahead and do it anyway. There are often mitigating circumstances though (coercion, drugs planted, etc) that should be taken into account.

 

[maomao]

The radically different geopolitical circumstances for one thing.

And what's so radically different about these geopolitical circumstances that means nothing at all that's been learned from previous conflicts that can be applied to this one? I really don't know because you haven't actually said anything in your last two posts to me other than 'you're wrong' .

 

[grit]

i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the law

They (justice and the law) are more and more unrelated to each other in UK and Irish courts it seems.

 

[maomao]

I'm against manifestly unjust laws but that's subjective isn't it? In the case of drug smuggling penalties in the far east I often have little sympathy for those who know what the penalites are but go ahead and do it anyway. There are often mitigating circumstances though (coercion, drugs planted, etc) that should be taken into account.

So it would be fine if you did a few years over here for your profligate cocaine use?

 

[SpookyFrank]

So it would be fine if you did a few years over here for your profligate cocaine use?

I think he's just like that tbh.

 

[newbie]

So your conflation of mob justice with due process according to local standards was false then? OK that's all we needed, thanks for your help.

what? 'mob justice'? where?

what I did say was that her captors appear to have held her in a civilised fashion.

 

[Spymaster]

Ok, thanks, I'm done with questions. I think your views are quite confused though, for the record.

Fair enough. I think they're extremely consistent but they're certainly different to yours.

 

[SpookyFrank]

what? 'mob justice'? where?

what I did say was that her captors appear to have held her in a civilised fashion.

And that justice would be done when anyone with a grudge against this person had grown tired or bored of exacting punishment. You said that as well.

 

[Spymaster]

So it would be fine if you did a few years over here for your profligate cocaine use?

I haven't used coke for many, many, years but had I been nicked for it back in the day I'd have accepted whatever had happened. Yes.

 

[Teaboy]

tbh I would rank 'blame the parents' alongside 'blame the internet' as seeking a simple answer where one may not exist. They may share some of the blame, and they may not really. We don't know.

Sure, we don't know but I'm comfortable with the accusation.