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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

So ISIS are uniquely evil in human history?

I didn't make any such claim, nor does that conclusion follow from anything I did say.

I understand you have issues with this (as do I), but this sort of ridiculous hyperbole doesn't really add any value to the discussion.
 
Where does that point come? At what point should the hunt for nazi war criminals have been abandoned? Should Mengele have been allowed to live out his life in South America?
Giving up on revenge doesn't have to mean giving up on seeking justice. Leave Mengele be? No, absolutely not. But prosecute John Demjanjuk, for instance? I didn't and still don't see how that prosecution served justice.

This doesn't apply to IS because their very state is being destroyed, but where you defeat a state and that state is going to continue existing, at some point you have to make a decision about the level of culpability you are going to let slide. That would be my reading of what happened in Germany and Japan after WW2. But the direct experience of their atrocities is going to colour that decision - it's not an accident that the Soviet Union took a harsher view than the UK or the US, and revenge certainly seems to be a big factor in Iraq's approach at the moment.

I don't have easy answers to any of this. The aftermath of a civil war is usually bloody, precisely because those defeated have no state of their own to fall back to.
 
I didn't make any such claim, nor does that conclusion follow from anything I did say.

I understand you have issues with this (as do I), but this sort of ridiculous hyperbole doesn't really add any value to the discussion.
So what is ridiculously facile about the comparison?
 
Not so sure about your first bit. There seems to be pretty wide consensus on this thread that she should be allowed back here, that she should be regarded as 'our problem'
Although she may have committed serious crimes against British law she didn't commit them here, iyswim. She's not 'our problem' until the victims of the crimes against humanity she stands accused of participating in, or providing support for, have decided, once and for all, that they've punished her enough.
 
Not entirely sure that there was a similar colonisation tbh , occupations yes. However nazi sympathisers, women who married or slept with occupying forces were routinely assaulted, tarred and feathered in France , hung in other countries , thrown out of their housesand refused employment by the citizens of occupied countries.
let's not forget the nazi wives of austria, or ostmark as the nazis called it

hitler-austrian-women.jpg
 
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The Nazi comparison doesn't work. Like the comparison with those released in Northern Ireland, there are other considerations to take into account. Those violent men in NI weren't released because it was decided that what they did was ok. They were released so that there could be peace in NI, and their victims had to suck up a fuck of a lot in the process, for a wider good. That doesn't apply here. In the case of the Nazis, a lot of people who did nasty things did get away with it. But again, I don't see what relevance that has here. Here, they won't get away with it, which is a good thing.

Might there not be mileage in treating members of Daesh (particularly non-combatants) with a degree of dispassion, following due legal processes etc, perhaps even some clemency in sentencing, for the sake of peace?

Daesh used the combination of Western imperialism and the racism experienced by Muslim's living in the West to recruit to their cause, after all.

Maybe you could take the view that making an example of this person sends a message to other young people who think of running away to join Daesh, or other groups that will surely spring up in their place, that they'll never be allowed back, and that it might put would be Islamist brides off for example.

But would it deter someone from carrying out a suicide bomb attack here? If you are a young Muslim in Britain who is attracted to all this stuff, and we know they exist, then does all this coverage/social media rage/stripping of citizenship make it less likely you decide to do something like that?

I just thought it was interesting that you said "those violent men" were released for the sake of peace - not really picking you up in particular but musing I guess.
 
No. I'm saying that if they did they should have been held accountable. The comparison with the nazi regime doesn't stack up anyway, not least in terms of scale. After the war there were likely millions of Germans and their collaborators who probably should have been brought to justice and weren't. That's unfortunate. Here though, we're talking about a few hundred people.

So because there are less of them, it's more important they're brought to justice?

The thread has grown quickly and I'm not sure but please remind me - are you in favour of her being brought to justice?
 
Giving up on revenge doesn't have to mean giving up on seeking justice. Leave Mengele be? No, absolutely not. But prosecute John Demjanjuk, for instance? I didn't and still don't see how that prosecution served justice.
If Demjanjuk was who Israel believed him to be at the time of the prosecution, then I see no difference between him and Mengele.

I don't disagree with the rest of what you say there but it only tangentially relates to the topic.
 
He'll correct me if I'm wrong but I'm kinda thinking Spy's view is she's already facing her punishment and justice has been served. :hmm:

That feels more like something I said about 40 pages ago. :hmm: I remember someone saying "let her rot" but it could have been anyone.
 
That feels more like something I said about 40 pages ago. :hmm: I remember someone saying "let her rot" but it could have been anyone.
Yeah I could be wrong I only dip in and out of this shitfest but I was getting the idea that there were several camps including the one she's in.

Camp 1. She in it.
Camp 2. She deservers to be in it.
Camp 3. No one deserves to be in a camp especially her poor baby.
Camp 4. It's men's fault.
Camp 5. Let's not waste any more troops on this hegemony.
Camp 6. This is just like the Nazi's
Camp 7. This is nothing like the Nazi's.
Camp 8. Cheese option.

I'm just sitting on the fence waiting for the bun fight :D
 
Yeah I could be wrong I only dip in and out of this shitfest but I was getting the idea that there were several camps including the one she's in.

Camp 1. She in it.
Camp 2. She deservers to be in it.
Camp 3. No one deserves to be in a camp especially her poor baby.
Camp 4. It's men's fault.
Camp 5. Let's not waste any more troops on this hegemony.
Camp 6. This is just like the Nazi's
Camp 7. This is nothing like the Nazi's.
Camp8. Cheese option.

I'm just sitting on the fence waiting for the bun fight :D

I hope there's a cheese fight.
 
So because there are less of them, it's more important they're brought to justice?
I'm going to assume that you're not deliberately trying to misrepresent me, and answer in good faith.

No. Because there are fewer of them it is far more possible to bring them to justice. It would have been impossible to satisfactorily prosecute millions of Germans and their associates in the immediate post war years, so as LBJ says, somewhere you have to draw a line regarding the level of culpability, decide who you are going to pursue and what you'll let slide. You need to do that here too to a lesser extent but Begum would come way above any such line that I would draw.
The thread has grown quickly and I'm not sure but please remind me - are you in favour of her being brought to justice?

Define justice. I suspect we have different ideas of what it is, how it should be delivered, and by whom.
 
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I'm going to assume that you're not deliberately trying to misrepresent me and answer in good faith.

No. Because there are fewer of them it is far more possible to bring them to justice. It would have been impossible to satisfactorily prosecute millions of Germans and their associates in the post war years, so as LBJ says, somewhere you have to draw a line regarding the level of culpability and who you are going to pursue. You need to do that here too to a lesser extent but Begum would come way above any such line that I would draw.



Define justice. I suspect we have different ideas of what it is.

We might well have a different idea of what justice is. I think it should include a fair and public trial, charges brought, evidence given, and an appropriate sanction.

I think what form of sanction is appropriate should be focused on the risk of harm to others an individual represents and also on rehabilitation, to stop them being a risk in the future. I realise obviously this is a far cry from the reality of the justice system, but if we're talking about principles...

I wouldn't have a problem with her being tried in Syria/Iraq if that's what authorities there wanted to do, provided she was given a fair trial and wasn't likely to be treated in a way that allows her to become a symbol or martyr for Daesh. But I think given there's a kid in the mix who is either going to be taken in by Britain or the Netherlands, or gonna have a really, really shitty life, I think best is to bring her back here, get the kid into social services and try her for whatever crimes she has committed.
 
I'm perfectly happy for her to rot in Eastern Syria.

My definition of justice is that which is defined by her peers: had she remained in the UK, or legged it home at the first opportunity, then that would have been her peers in the UK, but as she's in Syria her peers are the dispossessed, the bereaved, and the victims of a civil war she was happy to profit by. If she finds their definition of justice a little harsh for her tastes, then that's unfortunate. For her...

No one wants her, and even if she is not subject to justice, whether formal or informal, she is likely to spend her life in the somewhat anarchic wastes of eastern Syria and western Iraq. Her future is bleak, but given what she did - as an adult - and what she obviously believes, then it should be.
 
I'm perfectly happy for her to rot in Eastern Syria.

My definition of justice is that which is defined by her peers: had she remained in the UK, or legged it home at the first opportunity, then that would have been her peers in the UK, but as she's in Syria her peers are the dispossessed, the bereaved, and the victims of a civil war she was happy to profit by. If she finds their definition of justice a little harsh for her tastes, then that's unfortunate. For her...

No one wants her, and even if she is not subject to justice, whether formal or informal, she is likely to spend her life in the somewhat anarchic wastes of eastern Syria and western Iraq. Her future is bleak, but given what she did - as an adult - and what she obviously believes, then it should be.
i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the law
 
Danny Dyer's take by the way. Lord love Danny.


Alan Madely going straight for the blame-the-interwebs thinking. Before that it was computer games, then before that video nasties. Before that, seditious pamphlets, 'trashy' novels. Whatever you can blame that saves thinking too hard I suppose.
 
i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the law
whose law? Her and her cohort destroyed the rule of law in Syria, and the populations there are only now trying to pick up the pieces. She is where she is because of where she put herself- prima facie justice is being delivered.
 
We might well have a different idea of what justice is. I think it should include a fair and public trial, charges brought, evidence given, and an appropriate sanction.

I think what form of sanction is appropriate should be focused on the risk of harm to others an individual represents and also on rehabilitation, to stop them being a risk in the future. I realise obviously this is a far cry from the reality of the justice system, but if we're talking about principles...

I wouldn't have a problem with her being tried in Syria/Iraq if that's what authorities there wanted to do, provided she was given a fair trial and wasn't likely to be treated in a way that allows her to become a symbol or martyr for Daesh. But I think given there's a kid in the mix who is either going to be taken in by Britain or the Netherlands, or gonna have a really, really shitty life, I think best is to bring her back here, get the kid into social services and try her for whatever crimes she has committed.

I agree with bits of this but I really don't give a fuck if she's never rehabilitated as long as she spends the rest of her life in prison. That's not going to happen though but it's what I believe to be the appropriate sanction for someone who is unrepentant about facilitating mass rape and genocide; doesn't seem to give a fuck about over 3000 Yazidis still missing, and thinks beheading people that you don't like is "ok".

Absent the possibility of a genuine life sentence I would consider justice to have been served if she was executed by Iraq or Syria.
 
whose law? Her and her cohort destroyed the rule of law in Syria, and the populations there are only now trying to pick up the pieces. She is where she is because of where she put herself- prima facie justice is being delivered.
her and her cohort? three schoolgirls from london did all this? this may be your justice but it's a bit of an ask to say this is any other sort of justice: and by justice you seem to mean retribution.
 
i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the law

It does, in the UK. Her peers - the rest of us - have (broadly) decided, through the law, what justice looks like. In Eastern Syria or western Iraq however the 'community concensus' might look different and work in a different way...
 
Although she may have committed serious crimes against British law she didn't commit them here, iyswim. She's not 'our problem' until the victims of the crimes against humanity she stands accused of participating in, or providing support for, have decided, once and for all, that they've punished her enough.

Killing all your victims would seem to be a foolproof way of sidestepping this macabre interpretation of the concept of justice.
 
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