Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Yes. That’s exactly what he’s suggesting.So ISIS are uniquely evil in human history?
Yes. That’s exactly what he’s suggesting.So ISIS are uniquely evil in human history?
That’s why I didn’t tag you.To clarify my argument is pretty much what littlebabyjesus just said. Not pushing a race angle with that comparison.
So ISIS are uniquely evil in human history?
I actually meant the women of Germany. I know what happened to women who married or slept with nazis in occupied countries.
Giving up on revenge doesn't have to mean giving up on seeking justice. Leave Mengele be? No, absolutely not. But prosecute John Demjanjuk, for instance? I didn't and still don't see how that prosecution served justice.Where does that point come? At what point should the hunt for nazi war criminals have been abandoned? Should Mengele have been allowed to live out his life in South America?
So what is ridiculously facile about the comparison?I didn't make any such claim, nor does that conclusion follow from anything I did say.
I understand you have issues with this (as do I), but this sort of ridiculous hyperbole doesn't really add any value to the discussion.
Although she may have committed serious crimes against British law she didn't commit them here, iyswim. She's not 'our problem' until the victims of the crimes against humanity she stands accused of participating in, or providing support for, have decided, once and for all, that they've punished her enough.Not so sure about your first bit. There seems to be pretty wide consensus on this thread that she should be allowed back here, that she should be regarded as 'our problem'
let's not forget the nazi wives of austria, or ostmark as the nazis called itNot entirely sure that there was a similar colonisation tbh , occupations yes. However nazi sympathisers, women who married or slept with occupying forces were routinely assaulted, tarred and feathered in France , hung in other countries , thrown out of their housesand refused employment by the citizens of occupied countries.
The Nazi comparison doesn't work. Like the comparison with those released in Northern Ireland, there are other considerations to take into account. Those violent men in NI weren't released because it was decided that what they did was ok. They were released so that there could be peace in NI, and their victims had to suck up a fuck of a lot in the process, for a wider good. That doesn't apply here. In the case of the Nazis, a lot of people who did nasty things did get away with it. But again, I don't see what relevance that has here. Here, they won't get away with it, which is a good thing.
No. I'm saying that if they did they should have been held accountable. The comparison with the nazi regime doesn't stack up anyway, not least in terms of scale. After the war there were likely millions of Germans and their collaborators who probably should have been brought to justice and weren't. That's unfortunate. Here though, we're talking about a few hundred people.
are you in favour of her being brought to justice?
If Demjanjuk was who Israel believed him to be at the time of the prosecution, then I see no difference between him and Mengele.Giving up on revenge doesn't have to mean giving up on seeking justice. Leave Mengele be? No, absolutely not. But prosecute John Demjanjuk, for instance? I didn't and still don't see how that prosecution served justice.
He'll correct me if I'm wrong but I'm kinda thinking Spy's view is she's already facing her punishment and justice has been served.
Yeah I could be wrong I only dip in and out of this shitfest but I was getting the idea that there were several camps including the one she's in.That feels more like something I said about 40 pages ago. I remember someone saying "let her rot" but it could have been anyone.
Yeah I could be wrong I only dip in and out of this shitfest but I was getting the idea that there were several camps including the one she's in.
Camp 1. She in it.
Camp 2. She deservers to be in it.
Camp 3. No one deserves to be in a camp especially her poor baby.
Camp 4. It's men's fault.
Camp 5. Let's not waste any more troops on this hegemony.
Camp 6. This is just like the Nazi's
Camp 7. This is nothing like the Nazi's.
Camp8. Cheese option.
I'm just sitting on the fence waiting for the bun fight
I'm going to assume that you're not deliberately trying to misrepresent me, and answer in good faith.So because there are less of them, it's more important they're brought to justice?
The thread has grown quickly and I'm not sure but please remind me - are you in favour of her being brought to justice?
I'm going to assume that you're not deliberately trying to misrepresent me and answer in good faith.
No. Because there are fewer of them it is far more possible to bring them to justice. It would have been impossible to satisfactorily prosecute millions of Germans and their associates in the post war years, so as LBJ says, somewhere you have to draw a line regarding the level of culpability and who you are going to pursue. You need to do that here too to a lesser extent but Begum would come way above any such line that I would draw.
Define justice. I suspect we have different ideas of what it is.
Danny Dyer's take by the way. Lord love Danny.
beans first then cheeseI hope there's a cheese fight.
i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the lawI'm perfectly happy for her to rot in Eastern Syria.
My definition of justice is that which is defined by her peers: had she remained in the UK, or legged it home at the first opportunity, then that would have been her peers in the UK, but as she's in Syria her peers are the dispossessed, the bereaved, and the victims of a civil war she was happy to profit by. If she finds their definition of justice a little harsh for her tastes, then that's unfortunate. For her...
No one wants her, and even if she is not subject to justice, whether formal or informal, she is likely to spend her life in the somewhat anarchic wastes of eastern Syria and western Iraq. Her future is bleak, but given what she did - as an adult - and what she obviously believes, then it should be.
Danny Dyer's take by the way. Lord love Danny.
beans first then cheese
He says, yes she should come back... maybe we can learn from it.for those of us who can't listen at work, perhaps you could summarise
whose law? Her and her cohort destroyed the rule of law in Syria, and the populations there are only now trying to pick up the pieces. She is where she is because of where she put herself- prima facie justice is being delivered.i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the law
We might well have a different idea of what justice is. I think it should include a fair and public trial, charges brought, evidence given, and an appropriate sanction.
I think what form of sanction is appropriate should be focused on the risk of harm to others an individual represents and also on rehabilitation, to stop them being a risk in the future. I realise obviously this is a far cry from the reality of the justice system, but if we're talking about principles...
I wouldn't have a problem with her being tried in Syria/Iraq if that's what authorities there wanted to do, provided she was given a fair trial and wasn't likely to be treated in a way that allows her to become a symbol or martyr for Daesh. But I think given there's a kid in the mix who is either going to be taken in by Britain or the Netherlands, or gonna have a really, really shitty life, I think best is to bring her back here, get the kid into social services and try her for whatever crimes she has committed.
her and her cohort? three schoolgirls from london did all this? this may be your justice but it's a bit of an ask to say this is any other sort of justice: and by justice you seem to mean retribution.whose law? Her and her cohort destroyed the rule of law in Syria, and the populations there are only now trying to pick up the pieces. She is where she is because of where she put herself- prima facie justice is being delivered.
i'd have thought your definition of justice might have had something to do with the law
Although she may have committed serious crimes against British law she didn't commit them here, iyswim. She's not 'our problem' until the victims of the crimes against humanity she stands accused of participating in, or providing support for, have decided, once and for all, that they've punished her enough.