British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[The39thStep]

Were enthusiastically pro nazi wives punished after World War Two? (apart from when the allies turned up and raped them all that is)

Not entirely sure that there was a similar colonisation tbh , occupations yes. However nazi sympathisers, women who married or slept with occupying forces were routinely assaulted, tarred and feathered in France , hung in other countries , thrown out of their housesand refused employment by the citizens of occupied countries.

 

[xenon]

It’s a bit of a daft emotional response in my view, because it completely ignores any context, but crack on.

Where as journoes bringing her back because she seems a bit dim and confused to you from thousands of miles away is sensible. OK.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not entirely sure that there was a similar colonisation tbh , occupations yes. However nazi sympathisers, women who married or slept with occupying forces were routinely assaulted, tarred and feathered in France , hung in other countries , thrown out of their housesand refused employment by the citizens of occupied countries.

nothing happened to lady mosley after the war

 

[Teaboy]

She does really come across as dim, really dim. Dim and colder than a deliveroo meal.

 

[Spymaster]

nothing happened to lady mosley after the war

Unfortunately; but I'm not sure what laws she broke, tbf.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Was there solid evidence that enthusiatically pro nazi wives went out of their way to materially support the crimes perpetrated by the regime?

If so, then they should have been.

How would you be able to tell how enthusiastic they were?

 

[Athos]

So what, rather than subject her to the rule of law we allow the Home Secretary to do whatever he sees fit? That cannot be right.

Strictly speaking, he's following the rule of law (specifically s.40 British Nationality Act 1948). I think the question is whether it's a good law and/or whether the discretion it provides is used in a discriminatory fashion.

 

[Pickman's model]

Unfortunately; but I'm not sure what laws she broke, tbf.

apparently the mosleys had to get married again after the war as for some reason one adolf hitler, of berlin, germany, had retained their marriage certificate

while not an offence under the laws of the land certainly rather peculiar.

 

[Athos]

Given that Bangladesh have, in no uncertain terms, said they won't accept her, Javid's decision, it will be argued, has probably de facto made her stateless.

Of course, he will argue that it's Bangladesh's subsequent (unlawful) decision that has made her stateless.

 

[tim]

Were enthusiastically pro nazi wives punished after World War Two? (apart from when the allies turned up and raped them all that is)

No, but they were Aryan

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This thread has amply demonstrated that there's no shortage of people who would rather support her than see her punished. As the law, stands, it probably would only see her prosecuted for joining a proscibed organisation which carries a maximum sentence of 10 years. IF, and it's an enormous IF, she were sentenced to the maximum, she'd do 5 years. More likely she'd do a bit of time and be directed to one of these deradicalisation programs which don't seem to work in all cases.

Not so sure about your first bit. There seems to be pretty wide consensus on this thread that she should be allowed back here, that she should be regarded as 'our problem', and that she should be prosecuted and spend time in jail. If that does indeed happen to her in due course, she has had a result out of this, she has got off lightly and has the possibility of building some kind of a new life. And given that she has become the poster-girl of this process, we can widen that out and say that the same goes for all the others in her situation now. (I agree with those expressing distaste for the way Begum has been fixated on by the media.)

Regarding what happens after she leaves jail in that scenario, we can't really prejudge it. There are no certainties or guarantees, but that's true of lots of people released from jail after doing awful things. While we should be mindful of the potential threat she may present, we also shouldn't exaggerate it. What she has done is fucking evil, but at the same time, in many ways, she is a stupid child.

 

[Spymaster]

How would you be able to tell how enthusiastic they were?

I would suggest the basis of evidence as a good start. Did they travel 2000 miles to get involved? Did they keep slaves? Did they express no remorse for the rapes and genocide? Did they subsequently say that the murders of the beleaguered populations were "ok"? etc, etc ...

Stuff like that.

 

[Spymaster]

No, but they were Aryan

Aaaaaand we're off again ...

 

[Spymaster]

Of course, he will argue that it's Bangladesh's subsequent (unlawful) decision that has made her stateless.

Yep, which is what's going to keep this in the courts for years.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I would suggest the basis of evidence as a good start. Did they travel 2000 miles to get involved? Did they keep slaves? Did they express no remorse for the rapes and genocide? Did they subsequently say that the murders of the beleaguered populations were "ok"? etc, etc ...

Stuff like that.

Well you know they weren't travelling to join the Nazi's, they were in occupied territories. So are you saying actually none of them meet the criteria for punishment you're setting out?

 

[kebabking]

She is on the Turkish border, but can not cross without the docs. The Kurds running the camp have asked the UK to provide the docs at the border so they can be rid of her.

Unless she's moved, she's about 50 miles from the Turkish border, and about 5 miles from the Iraqi border.

The very solid impression I got from the various Kurdish statements was that they certainly want rid of her, but that she won't be released unless into to the physical hands of the UK authorities - she won't be bundled into a Hilux with some hacks from Sky news and a promise of travel documents on the Turkish border.

That means sending British soldiers - and there's a newborn to consider, so a 50 mile trip in the back of a pick-up, through checkpoints manned by a hotch-potch of groups differing attitudes, to a border that gets closed at random and for random periods of time, all along roads infested with IED's.

It's a 200+ mile drive to Erbil in Iraq which is where western support to the Kurds comes in by air - with a newborn - and the roads aren't like the M4, and it's 200 miles through militia central.

She could be picked up by helicopter - that's two Chinooks at £40 million apiece that you helped pay for - each with a crew of five, some of whom will have kids, an SF team of 8 and two pick-ups, and another 20 blokes to provide security on the ground for the helicopters while the SF team go into the camp to get her.

That's a lot of people, and a lot of resources, to risk...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Unless she's moved, she's about 50 miles from the Turkish border, and about 5 miles from the Iraqi border.

The very solid impression I got from the various Kurdish statements was that they certainly want rid of her, but that she won't be released unless into to the physical hands of the UK authorities - she won't be bundled into a Hilux with some hacks from Sky news and a promise of travel documents on the Turkish border.

That means sending British soldiers - and there's a newborn to consider, so a 50 mile trip in the back of a pick-up, through checkpoints manned by a hotch-potch of groups differing attitudes, to a border that gets closed at random and for random periods of time, all along roads infested with IED's.

It's a 200+ mile drive to Erbil in Iraq which is where western support to the Kurds comes in by air - with a newborn - and the roads aren't like the M4, and it's 200 miles through militia central.

She could be picked up by helicopter - that's two Chinooks at £40 million apiece that you helped pay for - each with a crew of five, some of whom will have kids, an SF team of 8 and two pick-ups, and another 20 blokes to provide security on the ground for the helicopters while the SF team go into the camp to get her.

That's a lot of people, and a lot of resources, to risk...

Dem Kurds said they would deliver her to the border, that they've been taking a lot of them there and handing them over. So why so hard in this case?

 

[Spymaster]

Well you know they weren't travelling to join the Nazi's, they were in occupied territories. So are you saying actually none of them meet the criteria for punishment you're setting out?

No. I'm saying that if they did they should have been held accountable. The comparison with the nazi regime doesn't stack up anyway, not least in terms of scale. After the war there were likely millions of Germans and their collaborators who probably should have been brought to justice and weren't. That's unfortunate. Here though, we're talking about a few hundred people.

 

[maomao]

Well you know they weren't travelling to join the Nazi's, they were in occupied territories. So are you saying actually none of them meet the criteria for punishment you're setting out?

I actually meant the women of Germany. I know what happened to women who married or slept with nazis in occupied countries.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Nazi comparison doesn't work. Like the comparison with those released in Northern Ireland, there are other considerations to take into account. Those violent men in NI weren't released because it was decided that what they did was ok. They were released so that there could be peace in NI, and their victims had to suck up a fuck of a lot in the process, for a wider good. That doesn't apply here. In the case of the Nazis, a lot of people who did nasty things did get away with it. But again, I don't see what relevance that has here. Here, they won't get away with it, which is a good thing.

 

[Athos]

I actually meant the women of Germany. I know what happened to women who married or slept with nazis in occupied countries.

I've big issues with this law and what Javid is doing (albeit I've no sympathy for Begum, or desire for her to return). But this comparison is utterly facile.

 

[tim]

The Nazi comparison doesn't work. Like the comparison with those released in Northern Ireland, there are other considerations to take into account. Those violent men in NI weren't released because it was decided that what they did was ok. They were released so that there could be peace in NI, and their victims had to suck up a fuck of a lot in the process, for a wider good. That doesn't apply here. In the case of the Nazis, a lot of people who did nasty things did get away with it. But again, I don't see what relevance that has here. Here, they won't get away with it, which is a good thing.

Those with influence stand less chance of being punished

 

[Spymaster]

The Nazi comparison doesn't work. Like the comparison with those released in Northern Ireland, there are other considerations to take into account. Those violent men in NI weren't released because it was decided that what they did was ok. They were released so that there could be peace in NI, and their victims had to suck up a fuck of a lot in the process, for a wider good. That doesn't apply here. In the case of the Nazis, a lot of people who did nasty things did get away with it. But again, I don't see what relevance that has here. Here, they won't get away with it, which is a good thing.

But we still have tim punting the preposterous notion that the post war allies were somehow soft on the nazis because they were aryan.

Fuck me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But we still have tim punting the preposterous notion that the post war allies were somehow soft on the nazis because they were aryan.

Fuck me.

I think there is mileage in a Nazi comparison, though. It's not like you can't say that ISIS are as evil as the Nazis. They are. But the comparison surely comes with what Iraq is doing now - Begum would be sentenced to death in Iraq for what she's done. There, the question is 'how do you treat your defeated enemy when that enemy was trying to exterminate you?' At some point, you have to give up on revenge.

 

[Dillinger4]

I think there is mileage in a Nazi comparison, though. It's not like you can't say that ISIS are as evil as the Nazis. They are. But the comparison surely comes with what Iraq is doing now - Begum would be sentenced to death in Iraq for what she's done. There, the question is 'how do you treat your defeated enemy when that enemy was trying to exterminate you?' At some point, you have to give up on revenge.

Like in the Oresteia, giving up on revenge is the basis for rule of law. That is the compromise made for justice.

 

[maomao]

I've big issues with this law and what Javid is doing (albeit I've no sympathy for Begum, or desire for her to return). But this comparison is utterly facile.

So ISIS are uniquely evil in human history?

 

[Spymaster]

I think there is mileage in a Nazi comparison, though. It's not like you can't say that ISIS are as evil as the Nazis. They are. But the comparison surely comes with what Iraq is doing now - Begum would be sentenced to death in Iraq for what she's done. There, the question is 'how do you treat your defeated enemy when that enemy was trying to exterminate you?' At some point, you have to give up on revenge.

Where does that point come? At what point should the hunt for nazi war criminals have been abandoned? Should Mengele have been allowed to live out his life in South America?

 

[kebabking]

Dem Kurds said they would deliver her to the border, that they've been taking a lot of them there and handing them over. So why so hard in this case?

The logistics of it are the same, regardless of who does it. And if you are concerned with her welfare - or just that of the child - you'd have to ask how willing she would be to get in a vehicle with a load of Kurdish militia.

Personally I have no doubts that the Kurds would deliver her and the child to the border safely, but whether she would see it that way is another matter. If she kicks off, what then?

This, of course, is now irrelevant. She's not a British citizen, and she won't be until a) it goes to the supreme court, and b) the Home Office loses its appeal in the supreme court.

 

[Pickman's model]

The logistics of it are the same, regardless of who does it. And if you are concerned with her welfare - or just that of the child - you'd have to ask how willing she would be to get in a vehicle with a load of Kurdish militia.

Personally I have no doubts that the Kurds would deliver her and the child to the border safely, but whether she would see it that way is another matter. If she kicks off, what then?

This, of course, is now irrelevant. She's not a British citizen, and she won't be until a) it goes to the supreme court, and b) the Home Office loses its appeal in the supreme court.

might even go to europe

 

[maomao]

But we still have tim punting the preposterous notion that the post war allies were somehow soft on the nazis because they were aryan.

Fuck me.

To clarify my argument is pretty much what littlebabyjesus just said. Not pushing a race angle with that comparison.