British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know the real reason that drove her to leave, anymore than you do, whatever your misogynistic fantasies are.

I know it'll be more complex than the scenario you mapped out.

You might not like the way fh puts it, but there are no misogynistic fantasies in there. It's pretty simple factual truth about the matter. There may very well be lots of other truth to come out, but all that fh has said is true, by Begum's own admission.

 

[ferrelhadley]

I don't know the real reason that drove her to leave, anymore than you do, whatever your misogynistic fantasies are.

She was "driven" to leave?
Something in the UK forced her out of this hell hole towards being a bride of ISIS?
She did not chose to leave and the desire to be a bride of an ISIS murder was not the main appeal?

 

[LDC]

I don't know the real reason that drove her to leave...

I know it'll be more complex than the scenario you mapped out.

FFS, talk about stating the obvious. Of course the reasons why she left will be complex. Same as for many things of that magnitude, same for why people plant nail bombs in gay pubs in Soho (since that came up). It doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their decisions. As has been pointed out she was above the age of criminal responsibility when she left, is now an adult in every legal sense, and is openly unrepentant - and the idea that she's scared to be critical of IS because of her situation is a joke, she was critical of IS, for not being strong or 'righteous' enough.

"Drove" her to leave. You're making excuses for this which is very dodgy, not to mention patronizing to deny her any agency.

I started out feeling like she should be left where she is and see what pans out, but some of you on here would make me happily push the release a drone button for her now.

 

[Spymaster]

That she’s a UK citizen, whether we like it or not, and that should she return to the UK cannot be deported. (To where anyway? “The World Caliphate”?)

I agree with those who say 15 is an impressionable age, and that proper analysis of her current relationship with IS should probably wait until such time as she is somewhere she could reasonably be assumed to be speaking freely.

Having listened to her interview I think she sounds unremorseful, blasée about severed heads in bins, and having attitudes consistent with continuing to believe in the rectitude of IS principles, albeit that they have failed to live up to them. That said, I’m not a mind reader, and would agree that it is possible she’s being careful about what she says.

I can see no reason, on the face of it, for the diplomatic service or anyone else to bust a gut getting her home, unless for reasons of seeking a prosecution.

I would point out that the age of criminal responsibility in England is 10. The James Bulger killers, for example, were held responsible for their actions.

IS combatants aged younger than this 19-year-old woman are justifiably killed in battle. They are a vicious aggressor force, with an appalling human rights record. Using force against them is just, and supporting insurrection against their oppression is imperative on anyone who professes human solidarity. It is not necessary to ask what age they joined up when in the heat of battle.

She admits to travelling to Syria with the intention of joining the Caliphate and applying to marry an IS combatant. She seems to say she does not regret joining IS. This is appears to be admission of a crime in English law. She should therefore be investigated. It would seem to me there is a case to answer. If so, she should be tried for it. If the justice system deems it appropriate to seek her extradition, I could see the logic in that. I wouldn’t see that course as a priority, though.

I agree with all of this.

What's your take on the assertion that British forces soldiers are 'as bad' as ISIL volunteers?

 

[danny la rouge]

I agree with all of this.

What's your take on the assertion that British forces soldiers are 'as bad' as ISIL volunteers?

Stupid hyperbole.

 

[weltweit]

posted without comment

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh christ. Who cares what the audience on QT thinks ? Or the panel for that matter?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree with all of this.

What's your take on the assertion that British forces soldiers are 'as bad' as ISIL volunteers?

You called in the grown-ups to help sort out the stupid?

 

[weltweit]

Oh christ. Who cares what the audience on QT thinks ? Or the panel for that matter?

I do, I am interested in a wide range of views.

 

[tim]

FFS, talk about stating the obvious. Of course the reasons why she left will be complex. Same as for many things of that magnitude, same for why people plant nail bombs in gay pubs in Soho (since that came up). It doesn't mean they aren't responsible for their decisions.

"Drove" her to leave. Your making excuses for this which is very dodgy, not to mention patronizing to deny her any agency.

The David Copeland equivelance, again.

Going to ISIS controlled Syria at the he age of 15 is a crime, getting pregnant and having children is not? Planting a nail bomb,at the age of 22, in a pub that kills three people and mutilates others is also a crime. Do you think that the first crime, is of the same magnitude as the second? That seems to be an easy question to answer.

 

[Athos]

I think that your confusing me with SpookyFrank , which I resent, slightly.

My apologies.

 

[LDC]

What's your take on the assertion that British forces soldiers are 'as bad' as ISIL volunteers?

Not aimed at me I know but....

I think this must leave the person that thinks this in a very odd place politically and socially with regards to the rest of the population of the UK. There's about 230,000 members of the UK Armed Forces. Say each of them has on average 10 family members and close friends.

That's about 2.5 million people in the UK with a direct and close connection to currently serving members and you think that basically are on a par with IS? That must be very depressing to live in the UK surrounded by that.

And no wonder many people think the left is totally bonkers.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I do, I am interested in a wide range of views.

Well I suspect the motives of such people. Would they be saying that if Begum (and her parents appealing for help) were white?

 

[LDC]

The David Copeland equivelance, again.

Going to ISIS controlled Syria at the he age of 15 is a crime, getting pregnant and having children is not? Planting a nail bomb,at the age of 22, in a pub that kills three people and mutilates others is also a crime. Do you think that the first crime, is of the same magnitude as the second? That seems to be an easy question to answer.

I didn't say anything about them being equivalent or similar crimes, I said they reasons why they did what they did were both complex.

 

[weltweit]

Well I suspect the motives of such people. Would they be saying that if Begum (and her parents appealing for help) were white?

Based on one clip it seems a bit harsh to already bandy the racism card about don't you think?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not aimed at me I know but....

I think this must leave the person that thinks this in a very odd place politically and socially with regards to the rest of the population of the UK. There's about 230,000 members of the UK Armed Forces. Say each of them has on average 10 family members and close friends.

That's about 2.5 million people in the UK with a direct and close connection to currently serving members and you think that basically are on a par with IS? That must be very depressing to live in the UK surrounded by that.

And no wonder many people think the left is totally bonkers.

Not all those personnel participated in an illegal war of agression. Those that did, I've said already I think they should be looked after better than they are now.

My point has always been that you can't be holding people to different standards just because they wear the correct flag.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Based on one clip it seems a bit harsh to already bandy the racism card about don't you think?

And therein lies the problem with posting such things in the first place.

 

[tim]

I do, I am interested in a wide range of views.

Do they have those on Question Time these days? Robin Day is clearly upping his ante

 

[tim]

"Drove" her to leave. You're making excuses for this which is very dodgy, not to mention patronizing to deny her any agency.

We all have psychological drives that impell us to take the actions that we do, do we not? Correct me if my psychological terminology is misapplied or out of date.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Psychological drives do not deny personal 'agency'...they are very much a part of it. They are a dynamic of it. It's more complex and interactive than unconscious/not my fault vs fully present, reasoned and in control.

 

[eoin_k]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but I'm just wondering whether anyone is aware of the (government run) 'Prevent
(...) it absolutely compares radicalisation to (for eg) sexual abuse, in terms of the potential for grooming.

Within that, the process of making travel arrangements is also never (quite fucking obviously, imo - fucking hell, have you ever listened to teenagers trying to make even basic arrangments) one that will have fallen to the child (and that's written into the training,
(...)
.

Nothing I have heard about Prevent inspires confidence. Obviously there are parallels between online grooming and recruiting teenagers to the likes of Daesh, but the two activities aren't exactly equivalent and you can see how the Government might have an agenda in conflating the two.

This wasn't some blokes in Rotherham getting vulnerable teenagers pissed and taking advantage of them. A lot of the grooming seemed to have consisted in women, many of them quite young themselves, encouraging their peers to follow their lead.
No doubt this included practical tips about how to get there, but I haven't seen anything to suggest flights were being paid for and their would be a paper trial if this was the case.
None of this is to suggest Daesh isn't a regressively patriarchal set up.

 

[likesfish]

Uk forces don't own slaves or go on rape sprees or gleefully behead aid workers.
Last person to behead) someone killed in combat) int wanted an I'd and they'd left the camera behind so ghurkha improvised got into a lot of trouble.

 

[Don Troooomp]

How can they actually refuse entry though if she just pitches up at Heathrow?

She wouldn't get that far as she'd be refused boarding (Assuming the piece I read was accurate)

 

[LDC]

Interesting thread here....

Thread by @Hegghammer: "Long thread on foreign fighter repatriation. The question is immensely complicated, and I do not have a clear answer, but I have some though […]"

 

[stuff_it]

It sounds very much like her main hope is to give herunborn child access to the sort of medical care that may well have prevented the death of her previous two children. Given that her foetus will be a British citizen, and indeed will be in the care of a mum who oculd concieveably be considered as less than competent (since she is a proponent of violence who has tried several times already to have children in a war zone), I think the question is "should the UK government be doing more to retrieve her and her child. She obviously cares enough about the baby to be open to the idea of being prosecuted on her return in order to give it a better life, and it's definitely not the baby's fault that it's mum has made some questionable decisions.

 

[Don Troooomp]

My natural inclinations are kindness and fairness, but her affiliation to an especially nasty group of mass murderers can't be ignored.
My opinion hardly matters to reality, but I'm having to think carefully before I decide on a personal stance. Her age at the time means she could be considered to be an idealistic young fool (Not intended as an insult, more an opinion) and growing up a little might mean she's worked out her actions were silly.

 

[Don Troooomp]

questionable decisions.

Mild - Her choices were clearly bloody stupid

 

[Rob Ray]

some of you on here would make me happily push the release a drone button for her now

This thread's gone to some pretty weird places, but "happily push the release a drone button" on a pregnant woman is not something I think is even slightly acceptable to write, even if you think it's mainly a method to bare your teeth at another poster. Fucking hell.

 

[tim]

Psychological drives do not deny personal 'agency'...they are very much a part of it. They are a dynamic of it. It's more complex and interactive than unconscious/not my fault vs fully present, reasoned and in control.

I never claimed they didn't involve personal agency

 

[Treacle Toes]

I never claimed they didn't involve personal agency

I know. I was responding to another post that was disconnecting the relationship between unconscious drives/influences and agency...we are never just one or the other than in infancy surely?