British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[SpookyFrank]

No one is stopping her coming home, if she does, there's nowt we can do but let her in, investigate, possibly prosecute and jail her, and take her child into care.

Yep, that was all covered on page one of this thread but give yourself a pat on the back for pointing it out anyway.

There's no requirement for us to 'rescue' her & bring her home, so your comparison is frankly nonsense, Frank, which is hardly surprising coming from you.

Didn't say anything about rescuing her, just that if her going off to foreign lands and getting mixed up in a war is enough to have her thrown in jail and her child taken away and raised by the famously unproblematic care system then sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. There's no moral distinction between this young woman and a British solider in my mind. There's a difference in degree, but given that this woman was legally a child when she left the UK and she doesn't seem to have taken up arms herself that difference is in her favour not the soldier's.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not "denying her agency", I specifically said in the second line that she's not absolved of guilt. And yes, the whole point is we know fuck all about her psychology either before, during or after, other than that she was 15 and religious at the start and is talking tough at the finish. Everything else is making assertions based on little more than what a 19-year-old refugee trapped in a camp (which may or may not also have a number of people in it who wouldn't take kindly to say, a full-on recanting of prior affiliations) has to say about her experiences.

That said, the inability to even imagine that a teenager might have their head turned by a well-executed campaign of propaganda aimed at exploiting alienation, sympathy with repressed Muslim peoples, existing faith etc I find totally weird. Even Scientologists have a decent hit rate with cult recruitment and they're literally selling a space emperor dropping souls into a volcano via a little buzzing gauge. Is this not about 1,000 times more likely than the idea that a 15-year-old independently came to the conclusion that Murder and Torture Is Fine Because The Infidel Must Die from an average teenage daily news diet of I dunno, Newsround and Instagram?

You added the last para when I was replying to you.

Obviously the propaganda is very powerful. I don't have difficulty imagining that, I never said there wasn't a context, in fact I talked about grooming being part of the context in my first post on the subject.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep, that was all covered on page one of this thread but give yourself a pat on the back for pointing it out anyway.



Didn't say anything about rescuing her, just that if her going off to foreign lands and getting mixed up in a war is enough to have her thrown in jail and her child taken away and raised by the famously unproblematic care system then sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. There's no moral distinction between this young woman and a British solider in my mind. There's a difference in degree, but given that this woman was legally a child when she left the UK and she doesn't seem to have taken up arms herself that difference is in her favour not the soldier's.

I really would advise you to read up on Islamic State/Daesh. I'm not sure you quite get just how horrific they are. If you did, you wouldn't be saying this.

 

[likesfish]

kicking out the squaddies?
how are you going to force a large heavily armed organization whose reason is state sponsored violence ask nicely

 

[ferrelhadley]

Shamima Begum was groomed. She deserves the chance of rehabilitation | Michael Segalov

David Copeland was 22 when he bombed the Admiral Duncan, about 3 years older than Begum is now. Dylann Roof was 21 when he committed the Charleston Shooting. I do not remember people describing them as people who had been groomed in the impressionable years before they became terrorists.

There is a pretty weird and creep difference between when Islamists or white far right appear in the news either committing atrocity violence or promoting\ associating with it. In the later the condemnation is unequivocal, often accompanied by links to right wing mainstream media as playing a role in radicalising them. But when its Islamists there is a steady stream of equivocations, excuses and "but America did this" or "British soldiers are also war criminals". There seems to be an underling assumption that Islamist violence is partially justified or something.

 

[Edie]

Yep, that was all covered on page one of this thread but give yourself a pat on the back for pointing it out anyway.



Didn't say anything about rescuing her, just that if her going off to foreign lands and getting mixed up in a war is enough to have her thrown in jail and her child taken away and raised by the famously unproblematic care system then sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. There's no moral distinction between this young woman and a British solider in my mind. There's a difference in degree, but given that this woman was legally a child when she left the UK and she doesn't seem to have taken up arms herself that difference is in her favour not the soldier's.

What are you fucking on about?! There’s no moral difference between a British squaddie and an ISIS terrorist? I really fucking hope you’re just opening your mouth and random shits coming out cos if that’s your serious opinion you have problems

 

[Spymaster]

There's no moral distinction between this young woman and a British solider in my mind.

Yes. But that’s because you’re a total fuckwit with the critical faculties of a yoghurt.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I really would advise you to read up on Islamic State/Daesh. I'm not sure you quite get just how horrific they are. If you did, you wouldn't be saying this.

We all know ISIS is bad. That doesn't count as a point.

We also all know that the British state played a major role in creating both ISIS and the chaos in which they flourished. We knew something like this would happen even before the invasion of Iraq, and we invaded anyway.

 

[SpookyFrank]

What are you fucking on about?! There’s no moral difference between a British squaddie and an ISIS terrorist? I really fucking hope you’re just opening your mouth and random shits coming out cos if that’s your serious opinion you have problems

I wonder what the people of Iraq think the difference is.

 

[tim]

Really? Legally free to leave the place you chose to go versus being detained without trial and tortured in a place to which you've been kidnapped.

Clearly, she's no more free or in a position to leave to than those in Guantanamo.

 

[Athos]

There's no moral distinction between this young woman and a British solider in my mind.

Despite some very stiff competition, this must be one of the most stupid things you've ever said.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Really? Legally free to leave the place you chose to go versus being detained without trial and tortured in a place to which you've been kidnapped.

Traumatised people may be no more able to leave an open cell than a locked one.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Despite some very stiff competition, this must be one of the most stupid things you've ever said.

Lots of people telling me how stupid I am, zero people explaining exactly why I'm wrong.

 

[Athos]

Clearly, she's no more free or in a position to leave to than those in Guantanamo.

Yes, practically, she's stuck where she chose to place herself.

 

[Athos]

Lots of people telling me how stupid I am, zero people explaining exactly why I'm wrong.

Because it's so obvious that most people assume it goes without saying. For all the faults of the British state, the idea that the British army routinely uses mass rape, torture and murder of civilians because of e.g. their religion is patently nonsense.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Clearly, she's no more free or in a position to leave to than those in Guantanamo.

Is she locked in a small cell inside one of the most highly guarded forts on earth, itself surrounded by minefields, held there by the most powerful military force in the world?

I missed that bit.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Because it's so obvious that most people assume it goes without saying. For all the faults of the British state, the idea that the British army routinely uses mass rape, torture and murder of civilians because of e.g. their religion is patently nonsense.

Didn't say they did. Just that they were responsible for it, or chose to follow the orders of those responsible.

 

[Athos]

Didn't say they did. Just that they were responsible for it.

And you really think that makes individual British squaddies the moral equivalent of someone who volunteeed to play a supporting role to Daesh's fighters, despite that she must have known the atrocities they were commiting? Seriously?

 

[Edie]

Despite some very stiff competition, this must be one of the most stupid things you've ever said.

 

[SpookyFrank]

And you really think that makes individual British squaddies the moral equivalent of someone who volunteeed to play a supporting role to Daesh's fighters, despite that she must have known the atrocities they were commiting? Seriously?

Then it just becomes a question of what type of atrocities you want to participate in, and at how many degrees of remove. And once you've got to that point, no I don't think there's a moral line to be drawn. The soldiers who went off to Iraq knew they were aiming to dismantle an entire state in a matter of weeks, and they knew the likely consequences of that. It wasn't a secret, it was the only thing in the news for months.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Fucking hell, Frank, is going for gold tonight, in the village idiot competition.

 

[weltweit]

British soldiers didn't create the environment for ISIS, their political masters might be accused of that but the soldiers just did what they were ordered to do.

 

[tim]

David Copeland was 22 when he bombed the Admiral Duncan, about 3 years older than Begum is now. Dylann Roof was 21 when he committed the Charleston Shooting. I do not remember people describing them as people who had been groomed in the impressionable years before they became terrorists.

There is a pretty weird and creep difference between when Islamists or white far right appear in the news either committing atrocity violence or promoting\ associating with it. In the later the condemnation is unequivocal, often accompanied by links to right wing mainstream media as playing a role in radicalising them. But when its Islamists there is a steady stream of equivocations, excuses and "but America did this" or "British soldiers are also war criminals". There seems to be an underling assumption that Islamist violence is partially justified or something.

Copeland may have been only 3 years older during his bombing spree than she is now, but that makes him seven years older than she was when she left the UK. Do you think that there is no difference between a 15 year old and a 22 year old or even a 21 year old ?

Also she is accused of no other crime than going to Syria. You might not approve of people in their mid-teens fucking and having children, but do you think it is the equivalent of planting a nail-bomb in a pub? If you do, I would consider your ethical values warped.

 

[Edie]

Copeland may have been only 3 years older during his bombing spree than she is now, but that makes him seven years older than she was when she left the UK. Do you think that there is no difference between a 15 year old and a 22 year old or even a 21 year old ?

Also she is accused of no other crime than going to Syria. You might not approve of people in their mid-teens fucking and having children, but do you think it is the equivalent of planting a nail-bomb in a pub? If you do, I would consider your ethical values warped.

Have you just missed the bit about her going to join ISIS?

 

[Athos]

Then it just becomes a question of what type of atrocities you want to participate in, and at how many degrees of remove. And once you've got to that point, no I don't think there's a moral line to be drawn. The soldiers who went off to Iraq knew they were aiming to dismantle an entire state in a matter of weeks, and they knew the likely consequences of that. It wasn't a secret, it was the only thing in the news for months.

The average squaddie had no idea how the post-invasion geopolitical situation in Iraq would pan out. Whereas she knew she was going to help the kind of people who set prisoners on fire. There's just no equivalence. I'm actually struggling to believe that even you think there is.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The average squaddie had no idea how the post-invasion geopolitical situation in Iraq would pan out.

You realise you're supposed to be making points in favour of these squaddies right?

 

[danny la rouge]

Also she is accused of no other crime than going to Syria.

Belonging to a proscribed terrorist organisation. Listed on page 12: https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/670599/20171222_Proscription.pdf

 

[tim]

British soldiers didn't create the environment for ISIS, their political masters might be accused of that but the soldiers just did what they were ordered to do.

Well, at the risk of going all Godwin, I think that using the Nuremberg defence is not the best way of advancing your argument

Superior orders - Wikipedia

Befehl ist Befehl

I was only following orders

 

[Spymaster]

Also she is accused of no other crime than going to Syria.

Jesus, Tim. You're a reasonable man usually. Do you really believe this?

Is this genuinely what you think is the extent of what's going on here or are you just chanelling Plank for lols?

 

[likesfish]

Soldiers assumed their political masters would have a plan