British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[SpookyFrank]

Soldiers assumed their political masters would have a plan

Well we all know the saying, when you assume you make a decades-long asymmetric warfare shitstorm that claims millions of lives out of U and ME.

 

[LDC]

.

 

[LDC]

We all know ISIS is bad. That doesn't count as a point.

We also all know that the British state played a major role in creating both ISIS and the chaos in which they flourished. We knew something like this would happen even before the invasion of Iraq, and we invaded anyway.

You seem to be saying it's a bit our problem or fault because of the invasion of Iraq? So, would your position be any different if she was coming back from having been with IS/Boko Haram in Nigeria or IS in the Philippines, or etc. etc.?

 

[tim]

Belonging to a proscribed terrorist organisation. Listed on page 12: https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/670599/20171222_Proscription.pdf

Well I'm not convinced that she carries an ISIS Membership Card if such a thing exists, so how would you prove actual membership. And there is a clear difference between joining or even supporting an organisation and murdering people in its name.

Martin McGuiness said "I have never been in the IRA. I don't have any sway over the IRA". Martin McGuinness - Wikipedia

If the British establishment couldn't frame him or catch him out, will they have more luck with her?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And there is a clear difference between joining or even supporting an organisation and murdering people in its name.

We're going in circles on this thread now. I don't think there is a clear difference wrt IS at all. She smuggled herself into Syria to join them to help build the new Islamic State, to marry (specifically) a fighter and to have his babies. All for the greater glory of the new order. She is clearly implicated in everything they did. She made common cause with the whole thing.

 

[kebabking]

Is she locked in a small cell inside one of the most highly guarded forts on earth, itself surrounded by minefields, held there by the most powerful military force in the world?

I missed that bit.

Conversely I suppose, anyone in Gitmo is very unlikely to die of any of the waterborne diseases that are rife in refugee camps, nor will they have to sell sex for food or protection, nor do they face the good chance - as experienced by a good number of ex-IS people and their families (including children) - of being dragged out of their shelters within the camps by other armed groups, and shot in the dirt.

I'm not defending Gitmo or the practices that went with it, but I rather fear that in comparing the two, people massively underestimate what a shit place a refugee camp in a warzone can be...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Conversely I suppose, anyone in Gitmo is very unlikely to die of any of the waterborne diseases that are rife in refugee camps, nor will they have to sell sex for food or protection, nor do they face the good chance - as experienced by a good number of ex-IS people and their families (including children) - of being dragged out of their shelters within the camps by other armed groups, and shot in the dirt.

I'm not defending Gitmo or the practices that went with it, but I rather fear that in comparing the two, people massively underestimate what a shit place a refugee camp in a warzone can be...

Fair point. It was ridiculous to bring up gitmo at all in this context, tbf.

 

[Spymaster]

Belonging to a proscribed terrorist organisation. Listed on page 12: https://assets.publishing.service.g...nt_data/file/670599/20171222_Proscription.pdf

What's your call on this now, Pilch? The tenet of forgiveness versus the magnitude of the wrongdoing engaged in, or enabled? This woman's case is clearly convoluted by her age but doesn't her lack of regret negate that?

There are a dozen or more (serving or ex) British soldiers on these boards, as well as my son. Is it correct or reasonable to equate them all with Islamic State?

 

[AverageJoe]

Would you have her as a lodger/renter if and when she gets back. Ask yourself that and then ask yourself why or why not.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Would your position be any different if she was coming back from having been with IS/Boko Haram in Nigeria or IS in the Philippines, or etc. etc.?

My general position is that unless she was in a position of authority or was otherwise known to be directly responsible for atrocities, there is more to be gained from making an effort to rehabilitate her and address the reasons she went in the first place than from locking her up and throwing away the key. That holds for anyone who has been involved in horrible shit anywhere in the world. It goes for people in uniform too. Putting people out of sight and out of mind, whether dead or in jail or sleeping on the streets, robs us of the opportunity to learn from what they experienced, understand how it happened and meaningfully change things to stop it happening again. And it always lets someone worse off the hook.

If this kid goes to jail, that will not help a single living soul. It won't help her child. It won't help us find the people responsible for her going in the first place. It won't unspill a single drop of blood.

 

[Athos]

My general position is that unless she was in a position of authority or was otherwise known to be directly responsible for atrocities, there is more to be gained from making an effort to rehabilitate her and address the reasons she went in the first place than from locking her up and throwing away the key. That holds for anyone who has been involved in horrible shit anywhere in the world. It goes for people in uniform too. Putting people out of sight and out of mind, whether dead or in jail or sleeping on the streets, robs us of the opportunity to learn from what they experienced, understand how it happened and meaningfully change things to stop it happening again. And it always lets someone worse off the hook.

If this kid goes to jail, that will not help a single living soul. It won't help her child. It won't help us find the people responsible for her going in the first place. It won't unspill a single drop of blood.

she's an adult, not a kid.

 

[ferrelhadley]

If this kid goes to jail,

Show one quote from you describing a 19 year old neo nazi as a kid and defending the value of them avoiding custodial sentences. She went to Syria to offer her self as a sexual prize for an ISIS fighter and appears unrepentant about her involvement.

She has the right to return to the UK and I have the wacky idea she has the right to free speech and free association. But she is also likely to also face a custodial sentence for membership of a proscribed orginisation, its not like the radical left are calling for members of National Action to be treated with kid gloves and warm Horlicks.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

She herself is one of the people responsible for her going in the first place. She herself will need to face up to that fact somehow and to learn to live with it.

 

[cupid_stunt]

she's an adult, not a kid.

Try not to confuse him.

Anyway, in other news, the family is now calling on the government to bring her home, fuck that.

If they want her home, they can set-up a crowd-funding page, they need to take responsibly.

 

[MrSki]

I heard on Radio 5 Live yesterday that the father of one of the other two that went with her (Amiri Abase) took his daughter to three extremist protests in 2012 where the likes of Anjem Choudary were speaking. So maybe not all the grooming came so far from home.

 

[tim]

she's an adult, not a kid.

As has been continually repeated by me and others, she wasn't when she arrived in Syria.

A child is anyone who has not yet reached their 18th birthday. Child protection guidance highlights that under-18s who are:

• aged 16 or over;
• living independently;
• in further education;
• a member of the armed forces;
• in hospital; or
• in custody in the secure estate

are still legally children and should be given the same protections and entitlements as any other child.

HM Government (2015)

Legal definitions

 

[SpookyFrank]

Show one quote from you describing a 19 year old neo nazi as a kid and defending the value of them avoiding custodial sentences. She went to Syria to offer her self as a sexual prize for an ISIS fighter and appears unrepentant about her involvement.

She has the right to return to the UK and I have the wacky idea she has the right to free speech and free association. But she is also likely to also face a custodial sentence for membership of a proscribed orginisation, its not like the radical left are calling for members of National Action to be treated with kid gloves and warm Horlicks.

Studies show that nazis who go to prison come out 70-80% less nazi.

 

[ferrelhadley]

Studies show that nazis who go to prison come out 70-80% less nazi.

You are scrambling for relevance.

 

[tim]

Show one quote from you describing a 19 year old neo nazi as a kid and defending the value of them avoiding custodial sentences. She went to Syria to offer her self as a sexual prize for an ISIS fighter and appears unrepentant about her involvement.

She has the right to return to the UK and I have the wacky idea she has the right to free speech and free association. But she is also likely to also face a custodial sentence for membership of a proscribed orginisation, its not like the radical left are calling for members of National Action to be treated with kid gloves and warm Horlicks.

More slut-shaming.

 

[Athos]

As has been continually repeated by me and others, she wasn't when she arrived in Syria.





Legal definitions

You described her as a 'kid' when talking about her going to jail, now.

 

[A380]

...If this kid goes to jail, that will not help a single living soul....

Your wrong about this as well. If I’d been kept as a slave of an Isis household I think my path to recovery would be really helped by knowing that one of the people who’d chained me up, stolen my labour, tried to crush my sense of self and killed my family was locked up and powerless.

 

[tim]

You described her as a 'kid' when talking about her going to jail, now.

I think that your confusing me with SpookyFrank , which I resent, slightly.

 

[stuff_it]

we should immedialty send williamson javid and boris Johnson to go rescue her purely for the lols they'd be fine anyone who wants to do serious harm to the UK
unfortunately isn't going to harm a hair on any of them

Considering the amount of harm they've done to the UK they would likely be met with open arms.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I think that your confusing me with SpookyFrank , which I resent, slightly.

Only slightly?

 

[SpookyFrank]

If I’d been kept as a slave of an Isis household I think my path to recovery would be really helped by knowing that one of the people who’d chained me up and killed my family was locked up and powerless.

OK but I think if the same thing happened to me I'd feel the opposite. So now we've got two meaningless hypotheticals in direct opposition we can just cancel them out and move on.

 

[ferrelhadley]

More slut-shaming.

The fact ISIS openly offered sexual access to "concubines" i.e. captured children and to wives who had volunteered as an inducement to bring men to Syria to murder and die for them is a matter of record.
Begum sought to marry a single person who she had never met but had shown sufficient vigour in violence to be deemed to merit the reward of a bride. She was not a "slut" but sought to offer herself as a prize. How else can this be described.
She was not traveling to meet with someone she had fallen in love with but to allow ISIS to pick a stranger for her.

 

[tim]

Only slightly?

I don't want to hurt poor SpookyFrank's feelings.

 

[SpookyFrank]

How else can this be described.

Considering this involved a 15 year old child, and that we can assume some general familiarity with the details of the case, I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep describing it at all.

 

[danny la rouge]

What's your call on this now, Pilch? The tenet of forgiveness versus the magnitude of the wrongdoing engaged in, or enabled? This woman's case is clearly convoluted by her age but doesn't her lack of regret negate that?

That she’s a UK citizen, whether we like it or not, and that should she return to the UK cannot be deported. (To where anyway? “The World Caliphate”?)

I agree with those who say 15 is an impressionable age, and that proper analysis of her current relationship with IS should probably wait until such time as she is somewhere she could reasonably be assumed to be speaking freely.

Having listened to her interview I think she sounds unremorseful, blasée about severed heads in bins, and having attitudes consistent with continuing to believe in the rectitude of IS principles, albeit that they have failed to live up to them. That said, I’m not a mind reader, and would agree that it is possible she’s being careful about what she says.

I can see no reason, on the face of it, for the diplomatic service or anyone else to bust a gut getting her home, unless for reasons of seeking a prosecution.

I would point out that the age of criminal responsibility in England is 10. The James Bulger killers, for example, were held responsible for their actions.

IS combatants aged younger than this 19-year-old woman are justifiably killed in battle. They are a vicious aggressor force, with an appalling human rights record. Using force against them is just, and supporting insurrection against their oppression is imperative on anyone who professes human solidarity. It is not necessary to ask what age they joined up when in the heat of battle.

She admits to travelling to Syria with the intention of joining the Caliphate and applying to marry an IS combatant. She seems to say she does not regret joining IS. This is appears to be admission of a crime in English law. She should therefore be investigated. It would seem to me there is a case to answer. If so, she should be tried for it. If the justice system deems it appropriate to seek her extradition, I could see the logic in that. I wouldn’t see that course as a priority, though.

 

[tim]

The fact ISIS openly offered sexual access to "concubines" i.e. captured children and to wives who had volunteered as an inducement to bring men to Syria to murder and die for them is a matter of record.
Begum sought to marry a single person who she had never met but had shown sufficient vigour in violence to be deemed to merit the reward of a bride. She was not a "slut" but sought to offer herself as a prize. How else can this be described.
She was not traveling to meet with someone she had fallen in love with but to allow ISIS to pick a stranger for her.

I don't know the real reason that drove her to leave, anymore than you do, whatever your misogynistic fantasies are.

I know it'll be more complex than the scenario you mapped out.