Are you conceding on the point of law and want to discuss the morality instead?
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
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Are you conceding on the point of law and want to discuss the morality instead?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep. This is how the law is now framed. They're extending their reach all the time.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Once again you're getting flustered because you're playing the man and not the ball. This is why you keep getting stuffed. Calm down a bit and leave the personal stuff aside.
I'm not arguing that in the case of Begum at all. I'm pointing out the stupidity of Bimble's complaint that her British citizenship is worth less than others, when she has gone to great lengths to put herself in that position.
Begum's position has nothing to do with that.
bimble
floofy
That's the whole point. It's why this punishment can only be dealt to some brits and not others. Which is the issue we are discussing. I wonder what its like to be you, so stupid and so self assured.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Back to this again. Can you show us some examples of that having happened ever?
Throughout this thread people have been conflating the legality and the morality.
Do you believe that those that acquire British citizenship after moving to this country as an adult should then have that citizenship regardless of their actions?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The latest reframing of this law only came into effect last year. Give them time.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Like all of these illegal deprivations so far, no doubt.
Be sure to let me know when it happens.
bimble
floofy
i am telling you what the law says ffs. An example is Begum.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
'Only start worrying about the negative consequences of having rights taken away once those negative consequences have happened.'
You're as thick as BIG on this subject.
What was the change?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
In there with the parting sarcastic shot again. It only amplifies the ignorance of, and your lack of confidence in, your first sentence. You know that, right?
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
As has been said repeatedly (the problem with the length of this thread is that it's mostly made up of people asking a question, having it answered, asking a different one, having that answered and then circling back as though the first question was never asked) it's entirely foolish to suppose that powers available for political purposes won't be used. Previous framings – including the specific phrase "conducive to the public good" have already been used to the same effect many times over the last 20 years. These are powers which are being extended to allow further misuse, not something somehow entirely off on their own and unrelated to anything.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
You said it could happen to you "without any of that ...".
"That" being joing a terrorist outfit.
Begum did "that". So it's a poor example.
bimble
floofy
I know he doesnt really mean it, this 'if it was a problem you'd be able to show me a past example of it happening' but even the lazy pretence of it from spy here i find unreasonably annoying. I think its because if my grandparents had thought like that and not legged it when they saw which way the wind was blowing i wouldnt have got to exist. So its not just faux naive its kind of offensively naive.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I do, absolutely. Not that that's what happened here.
Not sure the post I made that Bimble was addressing in any way referred to you though?
FWIW I’ve agreed with your arguments in the main.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
It doesn't matter whether her crime is terrorism or stealing sweets, the law is imposing specific politicised outcomes weighted against particular minorities. Fuck me what sort of right-winger is this cavalier about the sanctity of the rule of law? "Equal before the court unless I don't like em" ffs.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
You and Spymaster have repeatedly referred to the "left" view. Well I'm left, and so's everyone else arguing against Begum's treatment on this thread. Not one of us has professed ourselves relaxed about the prospect of fascists being stripped of their citizenship. So unless you and Spymaster have some evidence you can stop bollocking on as though it's a real point.
Which is fine for people to believe, but then lots of people don’t agree, which is why those with dual citizenship are often treated differently around the world.
It’s more an annoyance I have with liberals than ‘the left’ as one homogeneous block. You argue persuasively but my points aimed at others remain right tbh.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Not (on current evidence) if they don't join proscribed groups.
Where I would partially agree is that the government should make very clear indeed, the potential pitfalls of dual nationality, and also ensure that UK citizens are aware of the jus sanguinis principle of citizenship.
That way anyone wishing to go off to fight for murderous rape cults in future can relinquish their non-Brit status first and not get themselves into this mess.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I haven't made that point at all, thanks. But now that I know it irritates you, I will. Fucking lefty.
Missed this. Glad our anti-fascist views align.
How do you know its only be used in terrorism cases?
bimble
floofy
He's just pretending to believe that as long as you make sure not to join ISIS you'll be fine. If you and your grannies are all 100% british that's different, you can go ahead and join them no problem.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Stop tagging me on this please. I haven't once mentioned the far right or made any such comparisons. This is between you and MM.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
There's a government in power (with an awful anti-immigrant alternative in-waiting) that deliberately stir up hatred against migrants with words like "invasion". They're assisted by the corporate press and there's been a growth of very open far-right rhetoric here, in the US and elsewhere, against "foreign" people and people coded as such, LGBT+ people as well as other minorities and women. Culture war shit isn't just people arguing on twitter. Roe vs Wade being essentially overturned has been part of that.
Yes I am concerned that the Begum case has been used to potentially roll back lawful rights of other people.
"Don't do a terrorism and you'll be ok" - like women were safe to terminate a pregnancy in much of the US until they weren't.
Yes I am concerned that the Begum case has been used to potentially roll back lawful rights of other people.
"Don't do a terrorism and you'll be ok" - like women were safe to terminate a pregnancy in much of the US until they weren't.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You fucking what.
You think 173,000 young British people of Bangladeshi heritage should be told that they need to contact the Bangladeshi authorities (who don't even know they exist) in order to renounce their right to Bangladeshi citizenship before they can have an equal status with their non-Bangladeshi peers?
Fuck's sake.
This is it. This is your final destination on your voyage of support for the UK government's actions. It's not pretty, is it?
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