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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

littlebabyjesus said:
It's not the first time they've tried to withdraw citizenship from British people on the basis of their Bangladeshi heritage. In previous cases, it was deemed illegal because they were over 21 ( the age at which this putative right to citizenship expires). With Begum, it was deemed legal because she was under 21 at the time. I'm still staggered that people cannot see what is wrong with this.
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:facepalm: :D
 
At least one writer on the Daily Mail sees how wrong this is
www.dailymail.co.uk

PETER HITCHENS: Shamima Begum is being punished without a trial

PETER HITCHENS: There is something a bit merciless about the British State's vindictive treatment of Shamima Begum.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

But holy crap, don't read the bit after. I feel a bit sick there's some intersection between my opinion and this bigoted man's! :oops:

edit: To avoid giving DM clicks, here is the article

You may think I am pretty bad now, but you should have seen me when I was 15. I said, did and thought terrible things, which are now hateful to me. The memory of them is pretty much unbearable. I can still shudder at the remembrance of them. But there it is, nasty actions once done cannot be undone, cruel words cannot be cancelled.

Perhaps everyone else is so much better than this, and so pure in heart, that they do not think there is something a bit merciless about the British State’s vindictive treatment of Shamima Begum. I agree with everyone else, especially my colleague Sue Reid, that her behaviour was idiotic and that she said and did things which she will be ashamed of until the end of her life.

Meanwhile I would think that the deaths of her three infant children, something none of us would wish on anyone, should be punishment enough for anybody.

I don’t like the look or sound of her. I suspect her basic problem is that she is not very bright. I hope never to meet her. But if anyone has any evidence that she committed a crime, then let them accuse her of it in a court of law, before an impartial jury. And if she is then found guilty I will cheerfully support the punishment she is awarded according to law.

But this cannot happen, as long as she is condemned to spend the rest of her life in some Syrian slum. This is thanks to a cancellation of her citizenship, which reminds me of the thuggish old Soviet Union at its worst, a despotic Third World measure which this ancient civilisation should be ashamed of wielding
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She has, as is all too common these days, been punished without trial. Maybe Sajid Javid, the politician who first condemned Begum to lifelong exile, has a totally clear conscience about his youth, which he is said to have spent reading the Financial Times and watching Grange Hill on the TV. Maybe he cannot conceive that the lives of any of his children or grandchildren might go so wrong, as life went wrong for ‘Jihadi Jack’ Letts, another of these idiots.

And maybe the members of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission have likewise lived lives of blameless sweetness from their infancy upwards.

We must, it seems to me, have some really pure and wonderful people doing these jobs. The same, no doubt, goes for all the politicians and journalists who have applauded the decision to confirm the revocation of Begum’s citizenship.But all I see is a nasty sort of mob justice. The British Government claims to be so very tough on terror but, in fact, is pretty useless at preventing it, and helped support an Al Qaeda affiliate, the Nusra Front, in a cynical operation in Syria.
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They claim to be keeping us safe from Begum, who cannot come here again. And yet, if she somehow managed to get on one of those dinghies from France, she could walk ashore on a Kentish beach one afternoon and vanish into our unpoliced cities, along with the thousands of others doing this without hindrance from this supposedly tough government.

This is fake severity, a hunk of meat flung to the angry crowd by a scared and weak state.

And it is also merciless, the lifelong relentless punishment of a lonely, bereaved woman. Is this a thing to be proud of?
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girasol said:
At least one writer on the Daily Mail sees how wrong this is
www.dailymail.co.uk

PETER HITCHENS: Shamima Begum is being punished without a trial

PETER HITCHENS: There is something a bit merciless about the British State's vindictive treatment of Shamima Begum.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

But holy crap, don't read the bit after. I feel a bit sick there's some intersection between my opinion and this bigoted man's! :oops:
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That's actually a good, fair article about SB. The horrible crap afterwards is much more typical of Hitchens and the Mail.
 
Spymaster said:
It's not the same but the principle that criminals should face trial in the jurisdictions they commit their crimes in, shouldn't really be contoversial.
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Some states claim universal jurisdiction for some offences. But sb may have committed some serious offences under uk law and certainly committed theft and possibly other offences in the course of her departure from the UK. It oversimplifies things to say try her where she is
 
Magnus McGinty said:
Neither does Kurdistan, which is who is holding her in the camp.
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She's being held by Kurds, not by Kurdistan, and the fact that it's not a state is why most (all?) countries have declined to allow them to try their prisoners.

That's why they should release them into the custody of Iraq or Syria.
 
Spymaster said:
She's being held by Kurds, not by Kurdistan, and the fact that it's not a state is why most (all?) countries have declined to allow them to try their prisoners.

That's why they should release them into the custody of Iraq or Syria.
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Would that be the Iraq that has been sentencing people to death after ten minute trials? That Iraq? And Syria? That nice Mr Assad you mean? That Syria.

You accuse others if naivety then say something like this?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
You accuse others if naivety then say something like this?
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You're the one who's been bandying around charges of naivety like they're going out of fashion. I try to avoid them (not always successfully) because it's a typically arrogant lefty style.

Good to have you back with a re-imagined argument though. If at first you don't succeed ...
 
bimble said:
look at the numbers in this Surge in number of Britons fighting to hold on to their citizenship
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Figures obtained by the Observer – provided after an intervention from the Information Commissioner’s Office – reveal that, during Priti Patel’s tenure as home secretary from July 2019 to September 2022, there was a sustained rise in challenges against deprivation orders, with over 119 in 2019-20 (37 successful) and 120 in 2020-21 (33 successful). By comparison, in 2013-2014 there were just 13 challenges; and in most years before, there were fewer than five challenges to the deprivation orders.
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Magnus McGinty said:
Fair point. I should have added ‘alleged’. Although I think it’s fair to say she was a member of a proscribed organisation.
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Yeah, I'm not trying to do "gotcha" nit-picking but I think it's an important point, and partly why I disagree with the decisions that've been made. I think she should be given a fair trial if there's a case for her to answer, which there certainly seems to be.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Would that be the Iraq that has been sentencing people to death after ten minute trials? That Iraq? And Syria? That nice Mr Assad you mean? That Syria.

You accuse others if naivety then say something like this?
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I don't think he's naive at all. I think he knows all about show trials and mass executions, and probably thinks they're a great idea.
 
Dystopiary said:
Yeah, I'm not trying to do "gotcha" nit-picking but I think it's an important point, and partly why I disagree with the decisions that've been made. I think she should be given a fair trial if there's a case for her to answer, which there certainly seems to be.
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I suppose the Govt’s position is as a member of a proscribed organisation she is a threat to National security so cannot return. I agree that she shouldn’t be punished indefinitely without trial but if she was brought back and committed further crimes for IS then everyone would demand to know why she was allowed back. It’s a catch 22 really.
 
Spymaster said:
You're the one who's been bandying around charges of naivety like they're going out of fashion. I try to avoid them (not always successfully) because it's a typically arrogant lefty style.
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Funny, because I've always felt the charge of naivety is pretty much the raison d'etre of the right. Isn't it your standard go-to whenever socialism (or sometimes just treating people with kindness, tbh) is brought up by people who you can't tarnish as being authoritarian or indecent? Your man Winston had a famous quote to that effect, I seem to recall.

I would note, incidentally, that I don't think for a second you believe the Iraqi or Syrian court systems are just or would offer a fair hearing, and leaning on them as alternatives might as well be paraphrased here as "I've already judged, found guilty and am happy with a death sentence, but would prefer it to have an official stamp."
 
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