British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Not at all. The principle isn't what you think it is, that joining a group like daesh -> loss of citizenship. If that was the case many of the people who went to join daesh would have ended up in the same boat as sb. Your claim is undermined by many people who did join daesh coming back. Over 400 Isis jihadis have already returned to the UK proper fighters, not people like sb. So six years ago about 400 had come back, must be rather more now.
But anyway the principle is that people with actual or potential dual nationality, their UK citizenship is worth less than people solely british nationals
bimble
floofy
This thing was kind of interesting, showing that 3/4 of conservative and leave voters would be fine with the death penalty being reintroduced in cases of terrorism. The removal of citizenship seems like a proxy for this and the votes would probably look similar but it isnt, because the point is its a punishment only available to use on some of the population not others.
yougov.co.uk
Should the death penalty be reintroduced for terrorist murder acts?
Would you support or oppose the reintroduction of the death penalty for the following crimes? Murder as part of a terrorist act
yougov.co.uk
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Many have! You don't think Begum is the only one do you? I posted figures on this thread last summer but can't find them now but off the top of my head, at last count the UK have revoked about 30 citizenships of ISIS travellers, the US far more, Canada has been at it too, and also Holland, iirc. France simply turned loads of their's over to Iraq for trial.
This notion that it's a Suela Braverman thing is nonsense.
No it isn't. Just because some have managed to get back without getting caught doesn't mean the government should help those who haven't yet.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
In 2021 the independent reported fewer than 10% of returning jihadis had been prosecuted. So for the vast majority of those who went and joined daesh there have been no sanctions either in terms of facing a court or losing uk citizenship.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
That’s outrageous, if true. Government should try harder. I’m not sure how that helps your argument though.
muscovyduck
Good IT skills and food hygiene competent
Honestly? You should be. Things like this are about chipping away at the absolute-ness of citizenship and the protections that come with it. Most of the time when there's citizenship loopholes being exploited, it's a local authority trying to push the cost of someone's care elsewhere. To them it don't matter if that's the LA next door or fucking Dublin/Paris/wherever. Unless you think you're definitely never going to become disabled, or get old, or have kids that end up needing a social worker, you should be worried about this
And of course there was the Windrush scandal where people who had resided here for years suddenly started being deported.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Very good point.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
My argument, such as it is, is simply you're wrong on this subject
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Governments take on extra powers and justify it by pointing to particular circumstances, but those powers are inevitably repurposed at a later date. We've seen that many times with anti-terrorism legislation being used against people who clearly are not terrorists. It's naive, frankly, to think this won't happen.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Bottom line is, if you've got any family connection to another country, your citizenship is at risk. At present, reasons are: association with terrorist movements (though I doubt this will affect many National Action types) and having entered the country half a lifetime ago and not having kept documents up to date (as in Windrush and some with dual nationalities).
I've no sympathy for that Begum prick but this is well on the way down the really slippery slope.
I've no sympathy for that Begum prick but this is well on the way down the really slippery slope.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Is it known whether these c.30 persons had dual nationality?
I believe part of Shamima Begum’s appeal argument was that revoking her UK citizenship would render her stateless (the Bangladeshi govt has variously said they don’t want her, or would prosecute her which could lead to the death penalty)…
… and that making someone stateless contravened international law (UN?) to which the UK is a signatory?
Evidently this argument didn’t persuade the recent SIAC (special immigration appeals commission) though.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They chose not to be persuaded by the argument. (There are other arguments to do with whether or not it is equitable for someone to have their ethnicity and age used against them in this manner under equality and discrimination laws.) Spymaster and others seem to be under the misguided impression that they were bound by the law to make this decision. They weren't. They chose to interpret the law in a particular way in order to make this decision.
And I don't think even Spymaster would disagree that this decision clearly contravenes the spirit and overall intention of the treaty concerned wrt making someone stateless. The govt found a loophole and the court decided to allow them to use it.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No, this isn't true. If one of your parents was born in a nation that bestows nationality jus sanguinis, and you don't relinquish that nationality; or you hold dual nationality otherwise; you may be at risk of having your British citizenship revoked if you commit an extremely serious crime. So far the only examples anyone has been able to show on this thread is the case of someone joining ISIS.
Actual cases of deprivation of citizenship are vanishingly rare. About 40 people a year have their UK status pulled, and half of those are revoked because they were obtained fraudulently in the first place.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
As the parliament doc I linked to earlier explained, the rise in revocation due to fraud is in part explained by a technicality whereby these were counted differently before. But the revocations due to 'public good' have gone way up. Not so long ago, this category essentially didn't exist - it was virtually never done.
I wouldn't call 20 a year vanishingly rare. Back when these orders were not made at all for decades on end - that's when it was vanishingly rare.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Blimey, not again! This is simply wrong.
Once again; the scope of the siac enquiry was to determine whether or not the HS acted lawfully. Not whether he acted fairly.
(My bold).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
In many instances, it is unlawful to discriminate on grounds of ethnicity or age. In this instance, it is not. Why is that, do you think?
You're simply being a useful idiot to power right now.
You're simply being a useful idiot to power right now.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
They are not saying "because you are 15* we are revoking your UK citizenship." They are not discriminating on the grounds of a protected characteristic - not directly. If you want to make out indirect discrimination you'll need to argue a Provision Criteria or Practice that applies to everyone in these set of circumstances but disproportionately adversely affect someone with whatever protected characteristic.
* Or whatever protected characteristic.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
A goalpost shift!
So you're finally accepting that you were wrong about the SIAC decision. Good. We're getting somewhere.
They're not discriminating against her because of her age or ethnicity. They've pulled her passport because she joined IS and legally held dual nationality.
Edit> As cesare pointed out above.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Given that she had no idea about her theoretical Bangladeshi citizenship and had made no attempt whatever to look into getting it, I would argue that she is being indirectly discriminated against due to her ethnicity. She is clearly disproportionately adversely affected by citizenship laws that allow hers to be taken away and someone else's not purely due to her ethnicity.
I'm not the only person who thinks this. I linked earlier to an article with opinions given that this law is racist. Because it is.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
She has been judged to legally hold dual nationality purely as a result of her ethnicity. Nothing else. You know this.A goalpost shift!
So you're finally accepting that you were wrong about the SIAC decision. Good. We're getting somewhere.
They're not discriminating against her because of her age or ethnicity. They've pulled her passport because she joined IS and legally held dual nationality.
Edit> As cesare pointed out above.
And 173,000 young British people of Bangladeshi heritage are also now judged to be dual nationals, whether they know it or want it or not (most do not).
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's how these precedents often get set, people conflate someone generally considered odious, like the unfortunate sb, with the actual issue, and then the precedent's set so later people who are more favourably viewed can have this done to them
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Was Jack Letts citizenship revoked purely on the grounds of his ethnicity?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Letts was well aware of his dual nationality. It is not comparable.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Still find it hard to see how this is in any way defensible even though the wanky legalistic sleight of hand has got through the courts. She's born in Britain and grew up here, it's not like sending someone back where they came from after a couple of years when they proved not to be the law-abiding addition to the nation as hoped when they immigrated. As such, she should pay for her crimes either here or where she committed them, not this handing off to a third country barely if at all even aware of her before all this.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not at all aware of her.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I didn't ask if he was aware of it. That a completely different issue.
Was his citizenship revoked on the grounds of his ethnicity?
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