British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Athos]

They murdered, maimed and bombed in the UK and some are still involved in criminality and violence. Isn't that good enough.

They're not dual citizens.

And, even if they were, the damage to Anglo-Irish relations would likely mean it wouldn't be in the public interest to use these powers.

Furthermore, given the effective cessation of Loyalist paramilitary activity, its not a given that the user of those powers would be proportionate.

You're really barking up the wrong tree with this one.

 

[Tanya1982]

it's the wrong question but here's a weird case for you.
Guy had his citizenship removed not for terrorism or noncery but because he pretended to be a more highly qualified doctor than he actually was, thats it. His crime was "deceiving DWP and HM Revenue & Customs".

Pirzada (Deprivation of citizenship: general principles : Afghanistan) [2017] UKUT 196 (IAC) (20 April 2017)

www.bailii.org

You'd think the higher crime would be the risk to any patients in his care, but I suppose like Al Capone, sometimes the revenue is the simplest thing to get a criminal on.

 

[bimble]

If he’d gone around doing a harold shipman that would be different, but he didn’t at all, so the dodgy doctor case shows that it’s not just terrorists & nonces who can get their citizenship taken away it’s also people who lie on their CVs.

 

[Athos]

it's the wrong question but here's a weird case for you.
Guy had his citizenship removed not for terrorism or noncery but because he pretended to be a more highly qualified doctor than he actually was, thats it. His crime was "deceiving DWP and HM Revenue & Customs".

Pirzada (Deprivation of citizenship: general principles : Afghanistan) [2017] UKUT 196 (IAC) (20 April 2017)

www.bailii.org

It's important to note that he wasn't born a UK citizen. And that he was engaged in criminal activity at the time of his application for citizenship, and lied about that in the application.

 

[bimble]

It's important to note that he wasn't born a UK citizen. And that he was engaged in criminal activity at the time of his application for citizenship, and lied about that in the application.

Dunno if it’s relevant really. He went to prison for the lying on his CV and then as an afterthought they decided to de-citizen him it seems.

NHS nurse jailed for falsifying qualifications

Abdul Pirzada worked as locum GP after falsely claiming to have worked for the UN and the French Red Cross

www.theguardian.com

 

[Athos]

Dunno if it’s relevant really. He went to prison for the lying on his CV and then as an afterthought they decided to de-citizen him it seems.

NHS nurse jailed for falsifying qualifications

Abdul Pirzada worked as locum GP after falsely claiming to have worked for the UN and the French Red Cross

www.theguardian.com

If you lie on your application for citizenship, and it wouldn't have been granted if you'd told the truth, then it doesn't seem that unreasonable for it to be revoked when that lie is discovered.

 

[bimble]

If you lie on your application for citizenship, and it wouldn't have been granted if you'd told the truth, then it doesn't seem that unreasonable for it to be revoked when that lie is discovered.

If you look at the appeal decision (oddly interesting) the dodgy doc won and Home Secretary lost.

Tribunal decisions

tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk

 

[Athos]

If you look at the appeal decision (oddly interesting) the dodgy doc won and Home Secretary lost.

Tribunal decisions

tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk

Yes, but that was on procedure - the Home Office cocked it up - rather than merits. In fact the Upper Tribunal went as far as to say that he might have lawfully been stripped, but the decision was, in effect, procedurally unlawful.

"The claimant's case looks very much like one in which a decision of the sort against which he appealed would be not merely permissible but entirely justified."

I don't know whether, after that decision was quashed, she then made another decision (which would've been a third attempt!) which was unassailable.

 

[bimble]

yes. cool case though wasn't it. I have no problem with the idea that people can lose their citizenship if they totally lied to get it, that seems kind of fair enough, it's the 'are you of good character and loyal to the state' bit that i think is ... problematic.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Ireland's a dead-end anyway, even if you get a NI loyalist and remove his UK citizenship, he's still able to enter the UK at will due to the common travel area. Whilst it may be a lol to do such a thing I would guess that most of these fuckers have Irish passports already, since Brexit at any road...

 

[Athos]

yes. cool case though wasn't it. I have no problem with the idea that people can lose their citizenship if they totally lied to get it, that seems kind of fair enough, it's the 'are you of good character and loyal to the state' bit that i think is ... problematic.

Yeah, it was an interesting case. Though not as interesting as some of those SIAC decisions. There's a few in that list I posted yesterday where people are tapped up my MI6 and all sorts!

 

[Spymaster]

Ehrm, spy... Windrush scandal explained

The Windrush scandal started in 2012...

Yep, fair play. I didn’t think that through.

 

[Rob Ray]

Yeah yeah yeah.

Show me an example of this particular power being abused. How many times do I need to ask this?

I listed four historic cases, two of which (Goldman and Berkman, deported to Russia) were from the Free and Democratic US of A. There's countless other examples in European and US history of exile and citizenship being used as a weapon against dissenters.

Your apparent argument that it won't happen because it's not happened yet (to someone you deem an unfair case) is infantile and far too naive to be an honest position, given your long-standing presence on Urban. We all saw and discussed the police making all kinds of assurances when the anti-terror laws came in that they'd not be used against protesters, yet lo and behold. The most recent anti-protest laws are just the latest in a long line of legislation and action showing comprehensively what the State is prepared to do given the chance, but it's lalala, fingers in ears, I'm alright Jack from you.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Monaghan and Dublin so easily forgotten

There were bombs in 1973, and one attempt to bomb widow scallions (sp?) in the 90s which left to the death of an ira volunteer

To be comparable they would have to have settled there to carry out the atrocities. Which is what Begum did.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I listed four historic cases, two of which (Goldman and Berkman, deported to Russia) were from the Free and Democratic US of A. There's countless others in European and US history.

Your apparent argument that it won't happen because it's not happened yet is infantile and far too naive to be an honest position, given your long-standing presence on Urban. We all saw and discussed the police making all kinds of assurances when the anti-terror laws came in that they'd not be used against protesters, yet lo and behold. The anti-protest laws are just the latest in a long line of legislation showing comprehensively what the State is prepared to do given the chance, but it's lalala, fingers in ears, I'm alright Jack from you.

I quite like that we ought to support fascists abroad to aid the communist cause at home.

 

[Athos]

Yeah yeah yeah.

Show me an example of this particular power being abused. How many times do I need to ask this?

Isn't every upheld appeal against its use effectively evidence of it having been abused (albeit simultaneously a demonstration of checks and balances in the system)?

 

[Spymaster]

Isn't every upheld appeal against its use effectively evidence of it having been abused (albeit simultaneously a demonstration of checks and balances in the system)?

It’s evidence of there being checks and balances to prevent abuses and mistakes. Any laws can be abused and many are far more so than this one.

 

[Pickman's model]

To be comparable they would have to have settled there to carry out the atrocities. Which is what Begum did.

soz what bombs are you saying she planted?

 

[Athos]

It’s evidence of there being checks and balances to prevent abuses and mistakes. Any laws can be abused and many are far more so than this one.

Yeah, to a point. But the fact of those successful appeals does show that the state does attempt to abuse the power. And we have to suspect that not all of those abuses are effectively challenged, given the logistical difficulties in bringing a claim if, for instance, you're overseas.

ETA: You can take a position that a few miscarriages of justice are a price worth paying to address the security risk some of these people pose, but you should be honest about it, and not pretend that those things don't/won't happen.

 

[Tanya1982]

yes. cool case though wasn't it. I have no problem with the idea that people can lose their citizenship if they totally lied to get it, that seems kind of fair enough, it's the 'are you of good character and loyal to the state' bit that i think is ... problematic.

Is it problematic? Or is it just procedural but realistic? I mean, it's either broadly tick box yes or 'no, I have no real liking for/fucking hate the place, and my only real intention is to con the locals for monetary gain'.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah, to a point. But the fact of those successful appeals does show that the state does attempt to abuse the power. And we have to suspect that not all of those abuses are effectively challenged, given the logistical difficulties in bringing a claim if, for instance, you're overseas.

ETA: You can take a position that a few miscarriages of justice are a price worth paying to address the security risk some of these people pose, but you should be honest about it, and not pretend that those things don't/won't happen.

Well that’s pretty much my position. When/if it happens to someone who’s not a nonce or terrorist I might give a toss. But someone who joined IS … couldn’t care less.

 

[Tanya1982]

Well that’s pretty much my position. When/if it happens to someone who’s not a nonce or terrorist I might give a toss. But someone who joined IS … couldn’t care less.

I can see why, but that's precisely why exceptions are dangerous. Here's one you don't mind. There will be another someone else doesn't mind. Before you know it, you're living in the kind of state that will make an exception of anybody.

 

[Athos]

Well that’s pretty much my position. When/if it happens to someone who’s not a nonce or terrorist I might give a toss. But someone who joined IS … couldn’t care less.

Fair enough if you think potential miscarriages - the direct and indirect consequences of them - are a price worth paying to mitigate the security risk.

We can't know whether or not they're actually occurring, because we're not party to the information on which the decisions are based, and many of the decisions never face any legal scrutiny.

 

[bimble]

couldn’t care less.

687 posts so far to make it absolutely clear how little you care is quite impressive.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well that’s pretty much my position. When/if it happens to someone who’s not a nonce or terrorist I might give a toss. But someone who joined IS … couldn’t care less.

The problem is the precedents are set with people you couldn't care less about, once that's done the people you do care about don't have a leg to stand on

 

[Pickman's model]

687 posts so far to make it absolutely clear how little you care is quite impressive.

You should see his post count on the threads where he gives a shit

 

[Spymaster]

687 posts so far to make it absolutely clear how little you care is quite impressive.

What a very silly post. I care a lot about the subject. I couldn’t care less that she’s had her citizenship revoked.

 

[tim]

soz what bombs are you saying she planted?

The ones in the febrile imaginations of middle-aged men posting here.

 

[Serge Forward]

Well again, can you give me a single instance of it happening to someone who’s not a nonce or terrorist?

You want names? I can't remember but at the time when Windrush was big news, there were a few people deported for petty bullshit stuff from when they were teenagers and others for driving offences. Hardly nonces or terrorists.

 

[bimble]

What a very silly post. I care a lot about the subject. I couldn’t care less that she’s had her citizenship revoked.

oh, I thought that citizen revokation was the subject. What is it that you care a lot about then is it shamima in particular? Or do you mean that you very passionately and intensely do not care.