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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

What about people who (eventually) purport to have changed their mind only after they've been captured, and are detained in circumstances where they have an overwhelming motive to say whatever it takes (whether or not it's true), and where the genuineness of their supposed conversion can't really be tested?

Perhaps they could face some sort of due process? And perhaps that should happen in their country of birth and the country that failed to adequately safeguard them in the first place, as that would seem to fit with the notion of 'taking responsibility' on which the concept of retributive justice is predicated.
 
Perhaps they could face some sort of due process? And perhaps that should happen in their country of birth and the country that failed to adequately safeguard them in the first place, as that would seem to fit with the notion of 'taking responsibility' on which the concept of retributive justice is predicated.
If you're a victim of a crime abroad then you would at first try to engage with an embassy there for support. Of course, this becomes more difficult if the country isn't recognised so has no embassy and the crime you are a victim of looks like for all intents and purposes you were actively involved in. Not excluding being in a conflict against the very nation you now desire to protect you.
 
Perhaps they could face some sort of due process? And perhaps that should happen in their country of birth and the country that failed to adequately safeguard them in the first place, as that would seem to fit with the notion of 'taking responsibility' on which the concept of retributive justice is predicated.

I agree they should be subject to a fair process.
 
What about people who (eventually) purport to have changed their mind only after they've been captured, and are detained in circumstances where they have an overwhelming motive to say whatever it takes (whether or not it's true), and where the genuineness of their supposed conversion can't really be tested?

More specifically a child who was groomed and trafficked rather than just a person.
 
More specifically a child who was groomed and trafficked rather than just a person.
Obviously, if there was evidence of that having happened, that'd need to be taken into account when considering that person's culpability and/or continuing threat to the public.
 
If she'd been trafficked, that might provide a defence to any criminal charges. That would mean she'd be free (subject to any potential TPIM Order) if she were to return to the UK. A fact that, ironically, might count against her in any assessment of the risk she poses to the public. And it was the latter question, rather than her guilt or innocence of any crimes, that the HS had to decide. This latest strategy might backfire on her.
 
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Perhaps they could face some sort of due process? And perhaps that should happen in their country of birth and the country that failed to adequately safeguard them in the first place ….

Don’t be ridiculous. If this were the case every Brit who commits crimes in other countries would argue the same. And how the fuck is the UK to blame for her choosing to travel thousands of miles to join a cult of genocidal rapists?

Would you afford the same defence to a young lad who travels to America to join a White Supremacist group to assist them in torture, rape and murder?

Of course she should face due process, but in the countries where she’s committed her crimes. In this case, Iraq or Syria.
 
Trafficked to me means a person acting under duress as opposed to doing the thing voluntarily.

Whatever it means to you or me is irrelevant though, it has some clear definitions (some legal) and can include being persuaded or tricked for example, rather than anything more obviously forceful.
 
Whatever it means to you or me is irrelevant though, it has some clear definitions (some legal) and can include being persuaded or tricked for example, rather than anything more obviously forceful.
Do we know that she was unaware that the purpose of her trip was marriage?
 
The truth is we've got absolutely no idea about the existence of any grooming and/or trafficking, or the extent to which that should be considered to reduce her own culpability for past crimes/any assessment of ongoing risk to the public (nor indeed any of the intelligence about the nature and extent of that risk).

The truth could be anything ranging from: a) her being a poor sap who was groomed and trafficked, hated it when she got there but couldn't leave, has truly recanted such that she is no risk whatsoever, and the HS's decision was a cynical, racist bit of politics; to, b) her actively seeking out IS because she was and remains ideologically committed to the wicked, barbaric, and murderous regime, in which she participated freely and enthusiastically until she was caught, and the HS's decision is based on rock solid intelligence that she would perpetrate atrocities in the UK if given the chance (the risk of which can't be mitigated in other ways).

Those here on either side asserting one thing or the other are just making stuff up to suit their agenda.

The most anyone here can reasonably do is comment on the morality of the existing law (in principle and practice) generally, and the legality of the decision, based on what's publicly known.

Personally, I have issues with the law insofar as it creates a two-tier citizenship which is wrong in principle and practically counterproductive in the fight against terrorism. I also think it gives to much power to a politician, with insufficient effective oversight.

I wouldn't be surprised if it had been used for an improper, political purpose rather than in the interests of national security (albeit there insufficient evidence for me to say either way).

But, as far as I can see (accepting I've not seen all the evidence), there nothing to suggest the HS's decision was unlawful. That's what the SIAC will have to decide now.

In terms of outcomes, I'd prefer she was tried locally, but, if that can't happen, then I don't think it right that she should languish without due process (even if, technically, that's because of a subsequent decision by Bangladeshi politicians that was illegal under Bangladeshi and international law); in which case she should be brought back to the UK.

However, that might mean accepting greater risk to the British public and/or the introducing of new powers to mitigate that risk - both of which are problematic.
 
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The truth is we've got absolutely no idea about the existence of any grooming and/or trafficking, or the extent to which that should be considered to reduce her own culpability for past crimes/any assessment of ongoing risk to the public (nor indeed any of the intelligence about the nature and extent of that risk).

The truth could be anything ranging from: a) her being a poor sap who was groomed and trafficked, hated it when she got there but couldn't leave, has truly recanted such that she is no risk whatsoever, and the HS's decision was a cynical, racist bit of politics; to, b) her actively seeking out IS because she was and remains ideologically committed to the wicked, barbaric, and murderous regime, in which she participated freely and enthusiastically until she was caught, and the HS's decision is based on rock solid evidence that she would perpetrate atrocities in the UK if given the chance (the risk of which can't be mitigated in other ways).

Those here on either side asserting one thing or the other are just making stuff up to suit their agenda.

The most anyone here can reasonably do is comment on the morality of the existing law (in principle and practice) generally, and the legality of the decision, based on what's publicly known.
There you go with your fucking facts and well reasoned arguments again...
 
Cobblers. If this was a far right, male, white-power dude (groomed or otherwise), all the lefty hipocrites would be queuing up to throw him to the wolves, and you know it.
Speaking as an ultra-lefty, I've known one or two people who were NF/BM types when they were teenagers. They turned out all right in the end. Some people change, some people get worse. That's life. I don't know the situation with Begum, whether she's gone against her grooming or whether she continues to be an islamist monster, that remains to be seen. You give the impression that you make your big sweeping statements merely to support your wish to see her hanged by an Iraqi court. Fine, but let's make it clear that that's your focus here.
 
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So then, that alleged grooming would have happened in the UK when she was a British citizen, no?
If it happened, yes she'd have been a British citizen in the UK. But, even if it did, that wouldn't necessarily render the HS's decision unlawful - a groomed person can still represent a risk to national security. Essentially, to succeed in this appeal (on that ground - it's one of a few*) she'll have to show that the possibility of grooming was a relevant factor that the HS unreasonably failed to take into account - quite a high bar.

* see para 11 of the attached for a summary of the current grounds.
 

Attachments

  • Shamima Begum, C8, C10 & D4 - OPEN Judgment 20.07.2021 (3).pdf
    427.3 KB · Views: 3
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Interestingly, the Bangladeshis might have painted themselves into a corner. If the HS's decision is quashed, then, in the eyes of English law, she'll be a dual citizen again. At that point, if Bangladesh revoked her citizenship, there'd be no question of the UK doing so in the future (as that'd make her stateless). However, having denied she is a citizen, they can't easily strip her of citizenship. That would leave a window for the current HS to revoke British citizenship, based on how things stand today. I wouldn't put it past her.

ETA: Ignore that; she's over 21 so Bangladeshi citizenship would've automatically been revoked if she'd remained a British citizen (i.e. if the deprivation decision was unlawful). So they couldn't strip her of British citizenship in those grounds, now. Still wouldn't put it past them to find some other mechanism, though e.g. passport irregularities.
 
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Cobblers. If this was a far right, male, white-power dude (groomed or otherwise), all the lefty hipocrites would be queuing up to throw him to the wolves, and you know it.
You are talking directly to lefties telling you this is not the case. I personally know people who were fascist or fash-adjacent in their youth and changed their minds. There are certainly some lefties knocking around who haven't clocked the need to leave a path open for people to come back from that stuff, but leave wanking on about universals to the Mail eh?
 
Speaking as an ultra-lefty, I've known one or two people who were NF/BM types when they were teenagers. They turned our all right in the end. Some people change, some people get worse. That's life. I don't know the situation with Begum, whether she's gone against her grooming or whether she continues to be an islamist monster, that remains to be seen. You give the impression that you make your big sweeping statements merely to support your wish to see her hanged by an Iraqi court. Fine, but let's make it clear that that's your focus here.

My focus is not to see her hanged, although I wouldn't lose much sleep if she was. It's to point out the enormous (though totally predictable) double standards coming from "ulra-lefty" types, as you put it. Many posters here are totally convinced that she's a victim, despite the fact that she travelled 3000 miles to join a genocide cult; and that the government's stripping of her citizenship was illegal, which it very clearly wasnt. Change the sex, colour, and probable motivations and I promise you, this thread would look very different. There's also a huge arrogance in the notion that only a British court could deliver justice. Why? The crimes of the organisation that she joined were primarily committed in Syria and Iraq, where she was ultimately detained. If I was arrested for the murder of a French citizen in France, would you argue that I should be sent back to London to face British justice?

She may have been coerced into joining IS. She also may have wholeheartedly sought to join them and involve herself in their pogrom.
 
My focus is not to see her hanged, although I wouldn't lose much sleep if she was. It's to point out the enormous (though totally predictable) double standards coming from "ulra-lefty" types, as you put it. Many posters here are totally convinced that she's a victim, despite the fact that she travelled 3000 miles to join a genocide cult; and that the government's stripping of her citizenship was illegal, which it very clearly wasnt. Change the sex, colour, and probable motivations and I promise you, this thread would look very different. There's also a huge arrogance in the notion that only a British court could deliver justice. Why? The crimes of the organisation that she joined were primarily committed in Syria and Iraq, where she was ultimately detained. If I was arrested for the murder of a French citizen in France, would you argue that I should be sent back to London to face British justice?

She may have been coerced into joining IS. She also may have wholeheartedly sought to join them and involve herself in their pogrom.
I agree with you on 'British justice' point (subjext to the caveat that somebody needs to deliver justice - she can't stay in limbo), and that people are just making shit up about her being a victim (versus willing participant) with no real clue what happened.

And I suspect there's some truth in the double standards point; I doubt a white male who joined a fascist group would've attracted the same sympathy and support.

As things stand, it appears the decision was lawful - at least the de jure statelesness point appears to be without merit - but it's not all over yet. The decision could still be quashed; though I suspect they'd keep her out some other way.
 
My focus is not to see her hanged, although I wouldn't lose much sleep if she was. It's to point out the enormous (though totally predictable) double standards coming from "ulra-lefty" types, as you put it.
You are signally failing to show how double standards are being applied.

Many posters here are totally convinced that she's a victim, despite the fact that she travelled 3000 miles to join a genocide cult; and that the government's stripping of her citizenship was illegal, which it very clearly wasnt.
Alternatively you could say "Many posters here think she was groomed aged 15 by a death cult and persuaded to get on a plane. When she later became disillusioned, publicly rejected the death cult and asked to come back, the government used a loophole of her technically being Bangladeshi (even though she'd never even visited the country) to strip her of a lifelong citizenship in her country of origin. Which might or might not be legal, but was definitely an immoral consequence of a local moral panic."

All about framing, really, isn't it.

Change the sex, colour, and probable motivations and I promise you, this thread would look very different.
Back it up or stop presenting your suppositions as facts, please.

There's also a huge arrogance in the notion that only a British court could deliver justice.
Genuine question, what other court is proposing to give her a hearing?
 
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Alternatively you could say "Many posters here think she was groomed aged 15 by a death cult and persuaded to get on a plane. When she later became disillusioned, publicly rejected the death cult and asked to come back, the government used a legal loophole of her technically being Bangladeshi (even though she'd never even visited the country) to strip her of a lifelong citizenship in her country of origin. Which might or might not be legal, but was definitely an immoral consequence of a local moral panic."
Leaving aside the absence of any evidence that she was persuaded to do anything, and the fact that her purported disillusionment seemed to coincide with her capture, I'm not sure how you can assert that the HS's use of this legal tool/'loophole' was "definitely an immoral consequence of a local moral panic". For all you (or any of us) know, it might have been informed entirely by proper consideration of relevant intelligence, the content of which we know nothing about. You may be right, but, at the moment, it's pure speculation.
 
Have you actually read this thread?
Yes. Please point to where these hypocritical lefties declared an unwillingness to consider the cases of repentant former white male fascists who had been groomed at a young age.

Iraq. The French have allowed their citizens in similar circumstances to be tried there.
Has Iraq shown any interest in doing so?

their citizens
 
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