littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They had never avowed her in the first place. This is sophistry.
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Nonsense. And you know it is.
Athos
Well-Known Member
It's really not. There was no need for Bangladesh to personally 'avow' her; that children of (Bangladesh-born) Bangladeshis have Bangladeshi citizenship (until they reach 21) under Bangladeshi law is pretty much settled for the purposes of UK proceedings (see, for example, the cases of E3, N3, C3, C4, and C7).
I know they're trying to cobble together some claim that the decision caused her de facto statelessness, but it's hard to see how that could succeed given it was the result of the subsequent actions of Bangladeshi politicians.
Genuinely, good luck to her; it's abhorrent that somebody should effectively be denied any right to rights (as Hannah Arendt describes citizenship), such that they're left to rot, but it's hard to see how a court could find the SSHD acted unlawfully* with the law as it stands. (Particularly after the way the Supreme Court decided this point in the case of Pham v. The Secretary of the State for the Home Department (25 March 2015) United Kingdom Supreme Court 19 [UK].)
Again, you seem to be conflating (legitimate) criticism of what the law says with (misconceived) theories that the HS broke it.
*On the statelessness ground, at least; there are other grounds that appear to have a better chance.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
What are you on about?
“Us” as in people who travel 3000 miles to join genocidal rapist sects?
Speak for yourself if you like mate, but count me out.
As far as being accepted is concerned, I’ll comfort myself in the knowledge that I’m not going to have my British rights rescinded if I don’t join a terrorist cult.
DJWrongspeed
radio eros
I'm sure this will run and run. Doesn't it ultimately boil down to the fact she was in Isis when she was 18 regardless of what went on previously.
That was the government's thinking when they stripped her of citizenship and I'm sure they had intelligence we're not privy to. I'm sure if the family's lawyers keep pushing she will get home when a UK govt. decides it's politically acceptable.
That was the government's thinking when they stripped her of citizenship and I'm sure they had intelligence we're not privy to. I'm sure if the family's lawyers keep pushing she will get home when a UK govt. decides it's politically acceptable.
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
She'll probably end up presenting some shitty TV prog for the BBC and becoming a national treasure.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Chanel 5. Tabloid target.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
She's going to replace matt lucas on the great british bake-off
Athos
Well-Known Member
The legal proceedings have a load of procedural points which don't look too hopefull, and the substantive point - that the Home Sec's decision wasn't reasonable. We have little idea whether or not it was, given we don't know what the intel says. But it's very a high bar for the SIAC to overturn it.
Overall, her appeal has a chance, but I'd have thought a better chance will come with a Labour Home Sec.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
There you go with your fucking facts again.
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
Or she could host "Would ISIS Lie To You"
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
What is used against the guilty will be used against the innocent.
This is all the more true of anything that can be done summarily, without charge trial or conviction.
Tom Tugendhat, proud and eager participant in illegal wars of aggression, recently advocated removal of British citizenship from all Russian nationals by way of collective punishment. This would presumably include those who had renounced their former citizenship and would therefore be left stateless.
I'm surprised, and yet not suprised at all, to see that the response to revelations about Begum having been trafficked and in all probability sent off to die by western intelligence agents is to simply double down. I don't think it has anything to do with the facts of the case, however many experts in Bangladeshi law we suddenly have on staff. I think it's a refusal to accept what the case represents; namely that the fact that the 'good guys' are up to their elbows in blood and up to their knees in shit.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
If you are able to present any evidence of “the good guys being up to their elbows and knees in shit”, please carry on. You’ll be the first person to do so in the 174 pages of this thread, so I look forward to it.
And when you suggest people have “doubled down” in regards to Begum being trafficked by the west, you actually mean they’ve presented firm evidence that she wasn’t, don’t you?
And why do you presume Tugendhat’s proposal included stripping citizenship from those who hold only British nationality? That’s just you making silly stuff up again, isn’t it? Again, have you any evidence of this, or evidence that it has ever been done?
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Athos
Well-Known Member
You make some good points about this law - the creation of two-tier citizenship, the potential for use against the innocent, and the lack of proper checks and balances. (Albeit you've not addressed the alternative means for dealing with people where intel suggests they're extremely dangerous but it can't be put before a criminal court - essentially accepting a greater risk or other more draconian powers.)
And I'm sure you're right that UK is up to its eyes in dodginess all over the world; it's not a matter of good versus bad, so much as awful versus less awful.
But much of your post is pure hyperbole. Even if what's claimed is true, it'd amount to people smuggling rather than trafficking (the latter being against the subject's will). And her travel was facilitated by an ISIS operative, albeit one who may have told Canada about her after the fact. There was nothing the UK could've done to stop her at that point, and it's ridiculous to imply that the west sent her. This sort of nonsense actually distracts and detracts from the real criticisms of what's happened here.
As an aside, Tugendhat's proposal was ridiculous, but he suggested expelling Russian citizens; obviously, this wouldn't include those who were no longer citizens, and clearly he wasn't proposing making people stateless - that's something you've invented.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
You mean the couple of people on the thread who have actually bothered to read the relevant material issued by the Bangladeshi government?
Athos
Well-Known Member
You don't even need to do that; just read the judgements in the English courts to understand how they treat these questions.
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
Can well forsee her being sacrificed on the alter of tabloid news agendas, especially under a labour HS attempting to appear tough on touristism.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Would she not stand a better chance if she went along the lines of...
Had UK and Bangladeshi citizenship, but was unaware I had the Bangladeshi one.
I joined ISIS.
UK government cancelled my UK citizenship, leaving me with one which I didn't know I had.
The result of the UK decision is that I can only travel to a country which has vowed to execute me if I arrive there.
Something, something Council of Europe...
Had UK and Bangladeshi citizenship, but was unaware I had the Bangladeshi one.
I joined ISIS.
UK government cancelled my UK citizenship, leaving me with one which I didn't know I had.
The result of the UK decision is that I can only travel to a country which has vowed to execute me if I arrive there.
Something, something Council of Europe...
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
But there are certain people here who would put the UK judgements down to a racist interpretation of Bangladeshi law. Because white British judges are obviously corrupt.
Athos
Well-Known Member
She can try. But will be difficult, given the court have to decide the lawfulness of the decision at the time it was made. That was before Bangladesh said anything about her.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Bangladesh had vowed to execute any of it's citizens that joined Daesh before she was stripped of her UK citizenship, so as part of our commitments to the Council of Europe that should have been taken in to account. I reckon that's got a better chance than the hysterical nonsense her lawyer's been spouting about Canada at least...
Athos
Well-Known Member
She joined at 15, which is below the age of offending at which the death penalty applies.
The British courts will go by what Bangladeshi law says, not comments by politicians.
Anything would be better than some of the nonsense he dreams up!
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
She remained a member once she reached 18, the noose awaits...
Athos
Well-Known Member
It's bullshit. She's not going there. There's no real prospect of her being executed by Bangladesh.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Seeing as her citizenship is Bangladeshi and she has been a member is ISIS, where else can she go? No other country will allow her in, the only one who will has said they will string her up (they haven't offed any yet, but aren't shy when it comes to the rope), she's fucked to spend eternity in a camp in a country that wants to close the camps and move on.
Maybe Holland will have her?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
No wonder we've had enough of <spits> experts
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I think there is some possibility that she might one day come back here but not for a good many years though. It will require 2 things to happen. 1) A change in the UK Govt to one that is prepared to at least let her back in to plead her case which realistically means a non-Tory one whenever that is and 2) the situation in Syria become stable enough for her members of her family and/or friends being able to travel out there to get her since it is unlikely ANY British Govt is likely to send the RAF to get her. So she is probably stuck out there for several years, probably at least a decade and possibly the rest of her life.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
She was 19 when she said the Manchester Arena bomb was justifiable. Only a couple of years younger than the cunt who detonated it.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Nowhere wants her.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
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