Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Is this your first time on the athos show?
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
This is a new series of the athos show. Even if it looks like a repeat
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
I tripped didn't I? I bloody fell.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Is it?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
We've been over this. Jack Letts knew he had Canadian citizenship. Indeed he tried to use it before the UK stripped him of his UK citizenship. Begum had no idea about her right to Bangladeshi citizenship and indeed wouldn't have even theoretically had it had she been over 21. Also the Bangladeshi government disagrees with the British government about her citizenship so she has been left stateless by the British government's unilateral act.
The decision to remove Begum's British citizenship based solely on the fact that her parents were born in Bangladesh has the effect, at a stroke, of changing the status of thousands of young British people who now have an inferior position regarding their citizenship due to the nationality of their parents. All those young British people are people with Bangladeshi heritage. That's fucking racist.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yep.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
Yes.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
You were wrong about it the last time too.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Your position on this is a fucking disgrace.
Both you and Athos should have a word with yourselves for defending the arbitrary use of power to discriminate in this way. Just cos you don't like the person its being used against.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I don't necessarily disagree with much of that (except that it is the Bangadeshi gvernment's breach of Bangladeshi and internatonal law that's made her stateless); the point was that it's not acccurate say that the state wouldn't do the same thing (i.e. strip citizenship) to non-asians (even if the context and effect of those actions might be different).
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Whereas yours is simply muddled and counterfactual.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I've not defended it; I've criticised it repeatedly. I just don't feel the need to make stuff up (e.g. an unevidenced assertion that she was groomed) as a basis for criticism.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, not convinced that any discussion between a 15 year old and an adult amounts to grooming. For me, grooming implies some manipulation/overbearing of choice or free will. And we jst don't know what happened here. That might be what happened, but, equally, she might well have been and enthusiastic and committed jihadists without any maniplation.
Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
That's the exact same argument that gets used to excuse awful shit. Not doing this.
Athos
Well-Known Member
What do you think grooming is, then?
And you're literally trying to excuse someone who joined a murderous gang of fascists who used torture and mass rape as a weapon!
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
Come on, it's not like anyone's saying Shamima Begum is entirely without any responsibility for her actions. She was 15 and should have been treated like any other 15-year-old - ie. not the same as if she were an adult. It would still mean a long prison sentence anyway, if she were allowed to return to the UK, even without adding her subsequent actions as an adult.
We don't know what happened, because there hasn't been a trial. We do know she was 15 and left the country to marry an adult man that she'd met online and been persuaded to travel to marry him. There really isn't any way that isn't grooming - it's not "any discussion between a a 15-year-old and an adult."
And you still really should retract your bizarre accusation of racism and sexism. That was out of order.
Athos
Well-Known Member
We don't know she was "persuaded" to do anything.
ETA: Or that she met him online before she travelled.
I didn't make that accusation; it was somebody else.
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Raheem
Well-Known Member
She got pregnant more often than is usual for not doing anything.
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littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
'She seduced me. She was begging for it.'
'She was very mature for her age.'
He was about 24-25, btw, the husband, when they met online.
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Very telling all these middle aged blokes who think a 15 year old girl is 100% culpable for her actions if she's 'up for it', and deserving of all the consequences that come with it. Very telling indeed.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It was A380 who made the bizarre accusation. And yes, he should retract it. I purposely didn't quote the words to give him the chance to edit. He chose instead to double down. Not a good look.
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
Why? I haven't been part of this debate, and don't much care about it, but for one thing, you are reading into what they say what you want them to have said. And for another, you seem to be assuming that all 15 year-old girls are the same, and in need of your empathy. That in itself could be considered 'telling,' so I wouldn't get too indignant/excited.
None of us really know anything at all about what this young woman is like, her background, or what she really thinks. It's quite likely that she would have laughed at you and your empathy (like so many 15 year-olds would.) She might do so now she's older, but then again, she might not. We don't know.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
What a bizarre post.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure they met online before she went out there. Do you have a source for that? Because I've not seen her claim that, and everything I have read says they first met after she arrived.
I'm not suggesting it was OK for him to marry a child after she arrived, but that's not the same thing as grooming her to travel out there.
You seem to be inventing facts to support your position that she was somehow tricked/ manipulated into going, rather than choosing to do so because she believed in what IS were doing.
It's possible to disagree with this law, and even the way it's been applied, without making stuff up to absolve her.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
I've not said anything of the sort. I've merely said that there's no real evidence that she was groomed (except her obviously self-serving claims).
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying she wasn't; I'm saying we don't know, such that it's a bit ridiculous to keep saying that she was.
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
The term “grooming” seems to me like an increasingly fraught way of describing or understanding anything these days, what with the definition being bent out of shape by all manner of groups for ideological reasons.
She was 15, though, and certain individuals were very interested in radicalising young girls with the aim of making babies for the Caliphate.
Let’s not pretend she wasn’t at least “persistently encouraged” online before heading off abroad.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
I’m pretty sure that in an interview with the arse she married he said they first met in Raqqa. Not sure where they’ve got this online meeting from.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
That does ring a bell, though the word “met” could be doing a bit of legwork there.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It doesn’t much matter. Whether they met online before she travelled or were introduced afterwards doesn’t prove grooming one way or the other. If they met online before, people will say he groomed her. If they’d never met before they’ll say she was groomed by others. It’s moot.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
If it's proof we're after, looks like a court case would be the way forward...but weren't some against that?
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