littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
'Our very close ally's agent smuggled her and we've subsequently lied about this' is complicity after the fact.
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, leaving aside the fact that it was a member ISIS - albeit one who was providing intelligence - rather than Canada who (allegedly) facilitated her travel, there's a significant difference between the UK knowing beforehand and choosing not to stop it versus knowing afterwards (when there was nothing it could do).
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
So you think that the security services should have told everyone that IS were smuggling people into Syria and one of the smugglers was supplying the Canadians with secret information? Preposterous.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Told everyone? No.
Acted appropriately in the knowledge of their own complicity? Yes.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Sorry, but the idea that the country owes her anything because they may have been given information about other people who were smuggled into Syria, by ISIS, after they were smuggled, is ludicrous.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Where you're going wrong here is I think in terms of seeing this as a transactional relationship where there's a debit here and a credit there. She deserved as you would merit, a fair hearing in front of a court. The only danger she poses imo is of becoming a bore
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You could lose everything from 'that' to 'information' and the question would remain a fair one
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Well that's at least closer to what I said. I'll give you that. You still wilfully miss the point.
But we're never going to agree on this.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
That's what we have a system of tribunals and courts to hear
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It's not me seeing it that way, it's LBJ.
That's a different argument. The point he's arguing here is that she should be treated differently because the UK were given information about people smuggling by the Canadians, which somehow makes them complicit in her having been smuggled in the first place.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I'd rather see liz truss as PM than lbj - she has more nous
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
If that's the case it's because you keep changing it!
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
The fact that she was a child when she left is a good enough reason for me.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
fwiw my view on this is that it's messy. She was an adolescent, somewhere between child and adult, and imo, she exists in what Primo Levi would have called the grey zone wrt moral culpability. She doesn't get off for the terrible things she was actively complicit with (and by all accounts, she was a very enthusiastic participant), but at the same time she's also a victim - of groomers, of the men whom she actively helped, of a hypocritical UK government.
Sometimes things aren't simple black and white.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
You don't understand. There are only goodies and badies. Goodies are always good, in every thing they do all the time ever and badies (who can of course only be white middle or upper class men western men) are always bad in every thing they do. Obvs.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Like t.j. hooker said, there's no black or white but a million shades of grey. And I don't think it's all accounts, really is it. Just the accounts you recall.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
It's a rare good move by lbj, moving target harder to hit
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Either that, or Spy was saying something that I hadn't said and didn't think?
But you knock yourself out.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Out of order. Fuck's sake.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
No it's not. believing that that young British Asian women aren't capable of making decisions in line with Begum's is both. we have been over this time and time again on this thread before.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
This is not the gotcha you think it is. Out of fucking order.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
You've been banging-on about the UK government’s supposed complicity in Begum's smuggling, and suggesting that she's owed something by them because of it.
That seems to be your position in a nutshell and it's nonsense.
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A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
May a flock of migrating Canada geese fly into your engines.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
It's got absolutely fuck-all to do with her race or gender. She is responsible for her decisions, but not in the same way as an adult.
My GF, who really hates Isis and what Shamima Begum did, says the same about her age making a difference. And given that my GF is a very intelligent and self-aware British Bangladeshi woman I pretty much think she knows what the fuck she's talking about.
Rob Ray
Weight is meaningless
Believing a 15-year-old groomed as a younger teenager was a) a victim and b) not capable of the sort of informed decision-making deserving of a punishment that would not be meted out to people who are not of Asian heritage (permanent removal of citizenship/dumping in another country) is not racist or sexist. As a viewpoint it can be applied just as equally to boys and is not dependent on ethnicity (saying someone does deserve to have their citizenship removed on the other hand actually is dependent on ethnicity). You are free to think he's wrong but this is wind-up toss and you know it.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Have we seen any compelling evidence that she was groomed?
Jack Letts was stripped of his British citizenship; he was not of Asian heritage.
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Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
She was 15 ffs, that's pretty compelling evidence in itself. There's a reason the UK marriage laws were changed recently to made marriage of under 18 year olds illegal. It's known she was talking with ADULTS about the IS ideology. That is grooming. Flipping eck, most 15 year olds aren't getting into weird cults, but they're generally not held to the same standards as adults, and rightly so. As with courts taking age into account for young adults, let alone kids.
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