British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Athos]

Of course.

But arguably more able to recruit and organise others to do it for her, back in the UK?

Or to kill people elsewhere?

ETA I mean maybe not from the camp she is apparently in right now, but if/when she leaves there.

I don't know what she can do from there, and to what extent that can be monitored. The government's position is that she poses less risk to UK citizens if she's there rather than here. On the one hand, they're likely to be party to information we're not; on the other, they are likely to base decisions on political appeal, rather than purely on the security position.

 

[BillRiver]

it's astonishing to me that so few people here given the chance would really abide by the maxim 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'

given what osama bin laden did from the fastnesses of the hindu kush 20 years ago you'd have thought that by now western governments would have realised that small and far away are no longer synonyms for powerless.

Agreed. Although not the primary/fundamental reason that I object to the removal of a British citizen's citizenship despite any impression I've given here on this thread!

I actually disagree to that on principle, no matter what they're accused or even convicted of.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't know what she can do from there, and to what extent that can be monitored. The government's position is that she poses less risk to UK citizens of she's there rather than here. On the one hand, they're likely to be party to information we're not; on the other, they are likely to base decisions on political appeal, rather than purely on the security position.

frankly we'd all be in less danger if the positions of shamima begum and the cabinet were reversed, if she were brought back here and boris johnson and his filthy cabal installed in a camp in syria.

 

[Athos]

frankly we'd all be in less danger if the positions of shamima begum and the cabinet were reversed, if she were brought back here and boris johnson and his filthy cabal installed in a camp in syria.

That much we can agree on.

 

[BillRiver]

frankly we'd all be in less danger if the positions of shamima begum and the cabinet were reversed, if she were brought back here and boris johnson and his filthy cabal installed in a camp in syria.

That would depend on who replaced them in government, no? I presume you aren't suggesting she be given that power.

 

[Pickman's model]

That would depend on who replaced them in government, no? I presume you aren't suggesting she be given that power.

can't see how she'd manage to kill anywhere near as many people as boris johnson, but no, i'm not suggesting she be installed in number ten

 

[kebabking]

it's astonishing to me that so few people here given the chance would really abide by the maxim 'keep your friends close and your enemies closer'

given what osama bin laden did from the fastnesses of the hindu kush 20 years ago you'd have thought that by now western governments would have realised that small and far away are no longer synonyms for powerless.

I think the maxim's validity depends on the principle that you can keep an eye on your enemies if they are close to you - however if there's one thing we've learned over the last 20 years, it's that i) some of these people are really bright, ii) sometimes we're not as bright/careful as we'd like to be, and iii) watching these people to the point of rendering them harmless is incredibly resource intensive and expensive, to the point where we simply cannot watch all of them all of the time.

On that basis, dangerous and a long way away is better than dangerous and next door.

There is a fundamental problem in having these characters in what is one of the least secure places on earth, obviously there is, and only a fool would deny it - but there's also a fundamental problem in having them here, under a less than perfect watch, where literally a 20 minute gap in surveillance or reaction could result in half-a-dozen dead in their local supermarket.

There's only one truly secure pathway, all the others are comprised by having potentially very serious negative consequences. You just get to choose which risks and costs you're prepared to live with...

 

[Pickman's model]

I think the maxim's validity depends on the principle that you can keep an eye on your enemies if they are close to you - however if there's one thing we've learned over the last 20 years, it's that i) some of these people are really bright, ii) sometimes we're not as bright/careful as we'd like to be, and iii) watching these people to the point of rendering them harmless is incredibly resource intensive and expensive, to the point where we simply cannot watch all of them all of the time.

On that basis, dangerous and a long way away is better than dangerous and next door.

There is a fundamental problem in having these characters in what is one of the least secure places on earth, obviously there is, and only a fool would deny it - but there's also a fundamental problem in having them here, under a less than perfect watch, where literally a 20 minute gap in surveillance or reaction could result in half-a-dozen dead in their local supermarket.

There's only one truly secure pathway, all the others are comprised by having potentially very serious negative consequences. You just get to choose which risks and costs you're prepared to live with...

which makes it even stranger that some hundreds of your actual fighters have returned to the uk and we're really worried about one woman who no one even seriously suggests went to syria to top people

 

[Athos]

which makes it even stranger that some hundreds of your actual fighters have returned to the uk and we're really worried about one woman who no one even seriously suggests went to syria to top people

Nobody's arguing that those people are less dangerous than her; I suspect many are far more dangerous. But the reason they haven't been stripped of citizenship is that it would be unlawful to do so (since they're not dual citizens).

 

[BillRiver]

Nobody's arguing that those people are less dangerous than her; I suspect many are far more dangerous. But the reason they haven't been stripped of citizenship is that it would be unlawful to do so (since they're not dual citizens).

She wasn't and isn't a dual citizen either.

 

[Athos]

She wasn't and isn't a dual citizen either.

The courts decided she was (though she's not now).

 

[BillRiver]

The courts decided she was (though she's not now).

Bangladesh disagreed.

 

[Athos]

Bangladesh disagreed.

Some Bangladeshi politicians said she wasn't. But the English courts found that Bangladesi law says she is.

 

[Pickman's model]

Nobody's arguing that those people are less dangerous than her; I suspect many are far more dangerous. But the reason they haven't been stripped of citizenship is that it would be unlawful to do so (since they're not dual citizens).

yeh we've moved on from citizenship now so change the fucking record it's been played to shit

 

[Pickman's model]

She wasn't and isn't a dual citizen either.

have you ever seen the athos show before?

 

[Spymaster]

She wasn't and isn't a dual citizen either.

Here we go again

 

[Athos]

yeh we've moved on from citizenship now so change the fucking record it's been played to shit

It's the crucial difference between her and the group to which you compared her.

 

[maomao]

have you ever seen the athos show before?

Since Diamond left he's our preeminent legal expert.

 

[Pickman's model]

Since Diamond left he's our preeminent legal expert.

it's strange how we've proper actual practicing experts in so many fields but we've got to rely on someone who hasn't practiced law in years for legal stuff

 

[BillRiver]

My brother was born in the United States, to British parents. They all moved back here to the UK when he was 2 years old and he's lived here ever since.

He has dual nationality.

No matter what crime he might ever be accused of I don't believe he should ever be denied his British citizenship.

I don't believe anyone should, whether single or dual national.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's the crucial difference between her and the group to which you compared her.

i'd say it's what she's got between her legs which really differentiates her from the fighters who've come back.

 

[Athos]

My brother was born in the United States, to British parents. They all moved back here to the UK when he was 2 years old and he's lived here ever since.

He has dual nationality.

No matter what crime he might ever be accused of I don't believe he should ever be denied his British citizenship.

I don't believe anyone should, whether single or dual national.

Whether he should and whether he could are different questions.

 

[Spymaster]

it's strange how we've proper actual practicing experts in so many fields but we've got to rely on someone who hasn't practiced law in years for legal stuff

Does that matter? On this subject he's spot-on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Does that matter? On this subject he's spot-on.

just an aside, spy

 

[Athos]

i'd say it's what she's got between her legs which really differentiates her from the fighters who've come back.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if you could point to a case of a man in an identical position not being stripped of British citizenship.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Some Bangladeshi politicians said she wasn't. But the English courts found that Bangladesi law says she is.

At the risk of rehashing an earlier point, English courts are not empowered to interpret Bangladeshi law because of obviousness.

 

[maomao]

I'd be inclined to agree with you if you could point to a case of a man in an identical position not being stripped of British citizenship.

It's not just the legal case (yawn) that's up for discussion surely? It's the public perception and the press's obsession with this woman that's the real topic of discussion.

 

[Athos]

At the risk of rehashing an earlier point, English courts are not empowered to interpret Bangladeshi law because of obviousness.

For the purposes of a legal challenge to a decision of the UK Home Secretary bought in the English courts, they're the only forum empowered to decide that point!

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd be inclined to agree with you if you could point to a case of a man in an identical position not being stripped of British citizenship.

there's women who are undoubted uk citizens in the camps who were trafficked and are told they've no chance of coming back to the uk

https://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/syria/03052021

 

[Jay Park]

I think the maxim's validity depends on the principle that you can keep an eye on your enemies if they are close to you - however if there's one thing we've learned over the last 20 years, it's that i) some of these people are really bright, ii) sometimes we're not as bright/careful as we'd like to be, and iii) watching these people to the point of rendering them harmless is incredibly resource intensive and expensive, to the point where we simply cannot watch all of them all of the time.

On that basis, dangerous and a long way away is better than dangerous and next door.

There is a fundamental problem in having these characters in what is one of the least secure places on earth, obviously there is, and only a fool would deny it - but there's also a fundamental problem in having them here, under a less than perfect watch, where literally a 20 minute gap in surveillance or reaction could result in half-a-dozen dead in their local supermarket.

There's only one truly secure pathway, all the others are comprised by having potentially very serious negative consequences. You just get to choose which risks and costs you're prepared to live with...

christ on a bike that is far-fucking-out there.

'Having them here under a less than perfect watch'

Why don't we build camps like the Brits did in Kenya?