Athos
Well-Known Member
I stand by the statements: 'ISIS are murderers' and 'she joined ISIS'. But I don't belive anybody seriously thinks I'm accusing her of murder (even you - you're just nit-picking trying to score points).
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
I stand by the statements: 'ISIS are murderers' and 'she joined ISIS'. But I don't belive anybody seriously thinks I'm accusing her of murder (even you - you're just nit-picking trying to score points).
Athos
Well-Known Member
I actually agree that his heart is in the right place, even if his thoughts are all over the show.
maomao
普費斯
They only appear all over the place to someone who essentially just makes the same post repeatedly. For a couple of decades.
Athos
Well-Known Member
You described them as "scattergun" yourself.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You're making it very clear with eg she should have thought of that before joining that gang of murderers that you think that even if she didn't herself kill someone she was at least complicit in it. So if that's not the case perhaps you could outline the things you think she may have done, the heads as it were under which she might be charged
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, I think that joining ISIS is to be complicit, to a greater or lesser extent, with its actions.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And it's my understanding that being complicit in murder can easily be a crime itself, as several possible crimes leap to mind eg joint enterprise, conspiracy, being an accessory...
Athos
Well-Known Member
It can be. But there's no evidence (of which I'm aware) that the level of her complicity is high enough to implicate her in those offences.
bmd
Island in the stream.
That would be awesome but since neither of us have a crystal ball I have to go on what I know. Yes, she has been exploited and her whole sorry story is surely a cautionary tale for any other young woman who wishes to seek adventure out in those lands but I can't imagine her feeling that her tribe is people in the UK and if she does make it back here then I'm sure there will be plenty of people ready and waiting to spell that out for her. She has made it clear that she does not have any sympathy for victims of ISIS. If there is any time that someone should, at the very least, show some feeling towards them then surely that time would be when our gatekeepers are considering her future? Are you saying that you feel confident that she would have a change of heart once she is back here?
I don't believe she is a threat and I feel that her contribution, which I would hope she'd be willing to make, toward deterring future radicalised kids, is of greater value than the feelings of outraged reactionaries or yourself.
Of course I could well be wrong, I don't know her. However the whole thing makes me deeply uncomfortable; our racist state and it's racist home secretary happy to throw a child to the dogs just to appease rabid curtain twitchers sickens me, quite frankly. Leaving someone fucked up like that for the rest of their life just because of being radicalised themselves as a kid isn't a reason for the Tories and the right wing press barons to wash their hands of her
Hollis
bloody furious
Yeah - there's a good little piece here about her, politicians, and the public response which I largely agree with. Legal arguments aside, this is what's being played out with the whole Begum story.
"She's Not Likeable": Shamima Begum, Sex Stereotypes, and the Scourge of Emotionalism in Public Discourse
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with wanting (demanding?) she show remorse or emotion, in some prescribed way, for the victims of ISIS. Are they her victims?
Perhaps that says more about me than her
Me too.
Also I don't think she's free to speak her mind (if she even knows what she thinks right now) anyway, where she currently is.
bmd
Island in the stream.
I completely agree that it is a wholly shite situation. I am really not sure what I think. Well, I am but it's a thought that I'm not comfortable with, which is why I'm here trying to understand this a bit more.
She frightens me. That sounds ridiculous but it maybe would not seem quite so ridiculous if my family or I were facing someone like her with a knife in their hand. What are the chances of that? I don't want to find out. Speaking statistically, are there dangers closer to home that would probably finish me off before a knife-wielding young woman got to me? Almost certainly. Are they the kind of danger that would seek me out and wish for my horrendous end? No.
So what do I do? Think of her and her horrible situation or my family and the vanishingly small possibility of theirs?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
bmd
Island in the stream.
If I had a chance to voice my opinion of each one then I imagine it would have been almost identical to the one I have voiced here. But then you're not surprised at all. I think what you meant is that there are a lot of people here already that would be willing to saw my head from my shoulders, given half the chance? Yes, there are. I am quite concerned about that too. But I would also like to voice my concern about Shamina, here, if that's ok with you? I guess she is the scapegoat for all of ISIS' behaviour, in my mind. Or, if not the scapegoat then she is the person nearest to my fears over ISIS being on these shores.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Perhaps they lacked her commitment to the cause.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
I thought you dealt in facts and eschewed speculation
Athos
Well-Known Member
Unlike others, I'm not presenting a possibility as a fact. Hence the use of the word 'perhaps'.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
this does not prevent it being speculation
Athos
Well-Known Member
But not one on which I'm proposing basing any decisions.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
By god you're a wriggler
Athos
Well-Known Member
No, I've been clear and consistent throughout that we don't know the circumstances behind her going (and staying there), or the risk she poses now.
Attempts to justify her return by making stuff up about this two issues are dishonest.
I agree that this law should be challenged (albeit not in the basis of some of the spurious claims on this thread that the court has got it wrong). But that should be done honestly, weighing up the fact that she might pose a risk, and whether or not that's something we just accept as the price of preventing two-tier citizenship, or whether we accept other measures (e.g. increased surveillance powers) to offset any such risk.
not-bono-ever
meh
Compromise
bring her home
Then string her up
everybody wins
/ bored with this
bring her home
Then string her up
everybody wins
/ bored with this
You don't think the current surveillance powers for those suspected/convicted of terrorist offences (control orders, etc.) are enough?
bimble
floofy
They're not enough because it has happened a fair few times hasn't it that after a violent event the news says this person was on the list of known terrorist-risk related people but they weren't in the top 100 or whatever so they weren't being watched.
I think the reality is that it's impossible to have every single one of the known / assumed risk people (including thjose who once liked an Isis post on facebook or whatveer) followed by a team of watchers all day long.
She would be "in the top 100 or whatever" though wouldn't she.
bimble
floofy
Maybe. For how long, the rest of her days?
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