Boris Johnson tests positive for Covid-19
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Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Yes, we don't have to choose when apportioning blame, there's plenty to go around: our leading scientists and doctors enlisted the British people in a grotesque medical experiment they knew would lead to tens of thousands of deaths; and instead of seeking alternative advice, the cabinet signed off on it.
Personally, I'm most concerned about what's gone so disastrously wrong at the top of our scientific and medical establishments, and how unscientific "orthodoxies" became so entrenched. There's some brutal questions ahead for the BMA, and our leading medical schools and universities. This rot is clearly systemic, and goes far deeper and wider than Cummings and his weirdos.
But as shown by countries that took a different path, the Dr. Strangeloves only do what politicians allow them to do.
My point stands. Boris Johnson was a mediocre journalist, turned (fuck knows how exactly) a very successful politican. Not a doctor. He was advised by the most senior doctors in the country. What do you suggest his motive was to adopt the herd immunity policy exactly? That he wanted to kill people?
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
More that it fitted his political world view and that otherwise he didn't really care.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Cummings was in his ear. You know what Cummings said don't you?
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
almost as long as some have been posting on here
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
He had a duty to seek out opinions widely. His most senior doctors, for instance, were saying things that were dismaying senior doctors and epidemiologists of other countries. His job was to interrogate them and find out why they disagreed with one another. In the end this was a political decision to make. And yes, he is a mediocre person in every conceivable way, totally ill-equipped for any kind of leadership role, as he has demonstrated in every leadership role he has ever held. But 'I'm really shit at this' isn't an excuse when you've schemed to get yourself into the position to do 'this'.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
That killing people was preferable to placing restrictions on economic activity. His stupidity (and that of the cabinet) is that there wasn't really a choice about restricting the economy, because the pandemic would have done it anyway. His moral failing was his disregard for life.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
The Sunday Times gave probably the best summary when quoting an -- inevitably anonymous -- MP: in their words, Johnson's a "Darwinist" who believed in "survival of the fittest," and prioritized the economy (a stupid choice since what was proposed would've crashed it anyway, but there you go).
The doctors and scientists must absolutely be held to account, as must the medical schools and universities who've clearly been teaching disastrously wrongheaded info about epidemiology and virology for decades. But none of that gets politicians off the hook. There were other experts available, and they chose not to seek them out when confronted with the human toll.
The doctors and scientists must absolutely be held to account, as must the medical schools and universities who've clearly been teaching disastrously wrongheaded info about epidemiology and virology for decades. But none of that gets politicians off the hook. There were other experts available, and they chose not to seek them out when confronted with the human toll.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
It was an easy answer that fitted with the malthusian/eugenicist/social darwinist thinking implicit to right libertarian politics. The amazing bit is how they expected people to just go with it,.
Sure, I get that. I agree, seeing him standing next to the chancellor in those first few briefings was toe-curling. He was totally uninformed and kept deferring to Rishi who seemed to actually know what was going on. He should be nowhere near No. 10. But I think the real culprits here are the 'experts'. Neil Ferguson, I'm looking at you.
Too soon. But I'm nicking that....
ska invita
back on the other side
Do you know for a fact who gave what advice and how the decisions were made?
Im not buying the version that Tory cabinet "were just following orders" from medical experts. I'm buying "best not disturb business" was their own overriding principal.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
He's displayed, throughout his entire career - in journalism and in politics - a disregard for any life but his own. If he dies, then I'll say some Latin over his grave: "Requiescat in Piss".
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
They don't get off scott free. There is a lot of blame to go around, after all. But Johnson has to be held to account for the decisions - that's what being the elected representative means. In addition, whatever hateful shit Cummings said, Cummings didn't make those decisions either. Johnson did.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Exactly. He had the WHO saying the polar opposite, China on the phone reporting just how bad it was, and the Lancet raising the alarm. Any remotely competent government would've sought alternative advice. Emphasis on remotely.
The scientific and medical failure has undoubtedly disturbed me the most. I want to know who taught our chief doctors and scientists this, when, and how it went under the radar for so long. But I'd be just as disturbed if it's used as an out for the people who empowered them.
Favelado
J'adore South Shore
Not a daft assumption if you take into account the vast numbers of the working class who vote Tory. If they are happy to vote against their own interests so regularly, why wouldn't they go along with this too? That must have been the thinking.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
I'd like to send a message of support to boris johnson at this point 
www.theguardian.com
Global leaders send messages of support to Boris Johnson
Best wishes flood in from across the world for the UK prime minister and his family
BristolEcho
Well-Known Member
So what else can we let him/the government off with both now and in the future? They can surely just shrug and go we "we followed the advice of the experts" for everything if you allow that to wash. "Economy problems? What do I know I'm just a journalist?"
I mean he couldn't even follow the advice not to shake people's hands which was pretty basic.
I think it's pretty clear they didn't take it that seriously to begin with and wanted to ensure the flow of capital. That some people would die along the way which was acceptable collateral and they thought they could get away with that politically. When it was clear this wouldn't work and would be a disaster they fell in line and then started to blame the general public.
It again all feeds into that belief that they are untouchable. It won't happen to them.
I think you're letting the government off to easily.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
If we have to name anyone, Vallance (tag-teamed with Cummings, which tells you all you need to know about his character) and Whitty are surely the most culpable. But yes, Ferguson has some severe questions to answer, likewise the entire SAGE team. As shown by Scotland's CMO parroting the same rubbish before she resigned for flouting her own advice two weeks' in a row, these views are (apologies for the phrase) endemic in our medical community.
More like Ioannis Metaxas.
AverageJoe
...
I hope he survives.
This could be a political Road To Damascus moment.
If he passes then they can argue the NHS isn't fit for purpose. Ergo, I hope he pulls through and sees the error of his ways and starts paying all "essential workers" a decent wage.
It's not impossible.
This could be a political Road To Damascus moment.
If he passes then they can argue the NHS isn't fit for purpose. Ergo, I hope he pulls through and sees the error of his ways and starts paying all "essential workers" a decent wage.
It's not impossible.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
True dat. The tories went along with the Post War Social Contract for 30 years, gave the greatest change in conditions for working people that the country's ever seen.
/hahahahaha
ska invita
back on the other side
yes it is
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not sure how much I believe the planning for herd immunity shit, though, in the sense that I'm far from convinced that was ever really Johnson's plan. Perhaps Cummings really believed it. I think Johnson just thought of it as something to say to justify inaction, and that the thing just wouldn't happen here. We'd somehow avoid it. Much the same was thought in Spain. So he finally about-faced when he realised no, it is going to happen here and I would have to actually do the mass-death thing, and no, I can't do that.
Still reflects incredibly badly on him.
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