BBC - Owen Jones

[Rob Ray]

No one's questioning his homophobia, krtek.

No but people are repeatedly focusing on siting the core of his homophobia in Islam, rather than on say, the extraordinarily widespread cultural, cross-denominational hatred of gays that's still endemic in the West (though seemingly in decline) and has been seen both in regular less spectacular attacks and in very recent legislative campaigning. A hatred that is particularly pervasive in the kinds of circles a macho hard man-wannabe from a conservative background in the Southern US might move through.

Thing is everyone's seen the photos of the guy wearing NYPD T-Shirts - what sort of Islamic fanatic brands themselves with the logo of the enemy's internal security forces? What sort of fundamentalist doesn't bother distinguishing between Isis and al-Qaeda when bragging (!) about his terror links to co-workers? None of this makes any sense if you frame it primarily in terms of an anti-Western jihad, but it does if he's someone who hates gays as part of everyday life and then picks up a "belief system" to justify himself.

The reason that's important, afaics, is that if you talk about it primarily in terms of Islamic fundamentalism and a war on the West, it's basically sliding over any responsibility for ongoing societal reform at home. It's giving reactionary types a bye on how their behaviour enables homophobia in the everyday and the lethal effects that has, in favour of a narrative which is actively used by conservative agenda setters to reinforce racism, hawkish foreign policy etc.

 

[sihhi]

Here you go this is the kind of wisdom we can get

Owen Jones @OwenJones84
The heat in the Syria debate isn't proportionate to the tokenistic contribution Britain will make, is it?

suggests Pope is socialist in this interview with Mogg

"NATO: the merits of membership are so far from the mainstream of political debate, it would be pointless and self-defeating to pick a fight over it."

Owen Jones on two major foreign policy issues has a 'it's not worth debating' line.

 

[sihhi]

Thing is everyone's seen the photos of the guy wearing NYPD T-Shirts - what sort of Islamic fanatic brands themselves with the logo of the enemy's internal security forces? What sort of fundamentalist doesn't bother distinguishing between Isis and al-Qaeda when bragging (!) about his terror links to co-workers? None of this makes any sense if you frame it primarily in terms of an anti-Western jihad, but it does if he's someone who hates gays as part of everyday life and then picks up a "belief system" to justify himself.

One thought, but maybe one reason he "hates gays as part of everyday life" is because his everyday life was influenced by Islamic conservatism for instance his dad's Pashto TV activities and Muslim community involvement, the general conservatism of his local mosque in florida which he had visited from boyhood onward where other family members also volunteered etc. It was this conservatism which led his dad to post that facebook video after the massacre saying “God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality”

 

[Rob Ray]

"I blame the parents" is certainly one thought, and a marginally more rounded one than just "he's muslim and conservative, he must murder gays because he's muslim and conservative."

Not as rounded as noting that conservatism in the southern US enourages homophobia generally, or that he'd been an adult for many years before going against his father's stated views by unloading weapons into people, or that the circles he personally moved in as an adult weren't primarily muslim fundamentalist ones, or that he seems to have been so theologically clueless he didn't know the difference between Hezbollah and Isis though.

 

[co-op]

One thought, but maybe one reason he "hates gays as part of everyday life" is because his everyday life was influenced by Islamic conservatism for instance his dad's Pashto TV activities and Muslim community involvement, the general conservatism of his local mosque in florida which he had visited from boyhood onward where other family members also volunteered etc. It was this conservatism which led his dad to post that facebook video after the massacre saying “God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality”

Also there's an element here of complexity in switching codes between his identity as an American and an Afghan. In the latter culture homosexual behaviour can be tolerated so long as its not adopted as a key component of your social identity, it can even be quite 'normal' young male behaviour. It's taboo but not totally. In the US it more schismatic in a different way - you can either fully adopt a 'gay identity' or you can repress public symbols of your sexuality and pass as 'straight' but there's less inbetween space.

Navigating these gaps is stressful; the same individual can imagine themselves in all the different ways culturally available, but they don't really co-exist and there's always liable to be a tension there.

 

[sihhi]

"I blame the parents" is certainly one thought, and a marginally more rounded one than just "he's muslim and conservative, he must murder gays because he's muslim and conservative."

Not as rounded as noting that conservatism in the southern US enourages homophobia generally, or that he'd been an adult for many years before going against his father's stated views by unloading weapons into people, or that the circles he personally moved in as an adult weren't primarily muslim fundamentalist ones, or that he seems to have been so theologically clueless he didn't know the difference between Hezbollah and Isis though

First, using quote marks to quote my position is twisted, please don't.

Your suggestion that conservatism in the southern US helped mould his actions is, at present, baseless. He was not part of US southern conservatism, on the other hand he married Muslim partners the second in particular had been sought on a Muslim marriage website - this partner (from non-southern California - does the southern angle matter??). He also went as an adult to perform umre in Saudi Arabia on two separate occasions.
He visited the mosque with his very young son to do evening prayers four times a week including evening prayers the day before the attack.

The father's views on his facebook video were “God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality. This is not for the servants”.

On the Hezbollah al-Qaeda issue he said that he had relatives who were part of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan but that he supported Hezbollah. When the Boston marathon and Westgate shopping centre attacks happened he said he was relatives with them aswell. It would appear that he was trying to link himself and his heritage to perpetrators of these kinds of attacks.

 

[Rob Ray]

First, using quote marks to quote my position is twisted, please don't.

Your suggestion that conservatism in the southern US helped mould his actions is, at present, baseless. He was not part of US southern conservatism, on the other hand he married Muslim partners the second in particular had been sought on a Muslim marriage website - this partner (from non-southern California - does the southern angle matter??). He also went as an adult to perform umre in Saudi Arabia on two separate occasions.
He visited the mosque with his very young son to do evening prayers four times a week including evening prayers the day before the attack.

The father's views on his facebook video were “God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality. This is not for the servants”.

On the Hezbollah al-Qaeda issue he said that he had relatives who were part of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan but that he supported Hezbollah. When the Boston marathon and Westgate shopping centre attacks happened he said he was relatives with them aswell. It would appear that he was trying to link himself and his heritage to perpetrators of these kinds of attacks.

Weird way to put it, my "quote" was directly below your post, if I was deliberately misrepresenting you as opposed to just summarising based on content it'd be a weird way to do so.

Of course he was part of US southern conservatism, he went to a southern US school and brought his family values with him both there and into adulthood, where he worked in normal jobs with plenty of non-Muslims. It's fantasy to pretend he was somehow insulated in some muslim-only bubble. And as you point out yourself, his dad was against murder, not for it. It's possible to be homophobic and anti-killing. Yes he was clearly trying to link himself to some sort of Islamic extremism, but trying to work up the incoherence of supporting Hezbollah and then claiming a murder spree on behalf of Isis as him somehow being driven by ideology is just silly.

 

[binka]

https://humanism.org.uk/events/?page=CiviCRM&q=civicrm/event/info&reset=1&id=211

The Holyoake Lecture 2016, with Owen Jones | Towards a humanist politics
October 18th, 2016 7:00 PM - 9:00 PM
The British Humanist Association presents the Holyoake Lecture 2016 delivered by columnist, commentator, and political activist Owen Jones.

As a society, we have never been more disillusioned with politics, and political debate seems more polarised and conflict-driven by the day. For the BHA Holyoake Lecture 2016, Owen Jones will draw on a long history of humanist thought to explore whether it is possible to advance a humanist politics capable of meeting the ethical challenges of today.

Putting aside traditional notions of 'left' and 'right', Owen will ask whether a more humanist model of addressing issues like social cohesion, international cooperation, and new ethical dilemmas posed by advances in science, can at last restore trust in politics.

Who's in? Only £12.50 a ticket and we could make a proper night of it

 

[sihhi]

Weird way to put it, my "quote" was directly below your post, if I was deliberately misrepresenting you as opposed to just summarising based on content it'd be a weird way to do so.

Of course he was part of US southern conservatism, he went to a southern US school and brought his family values with him both there and into adulthood, where he worked in normal jobs with plenty of non-Muslims. It's fantasy to pretend he was somehow insulated in some muslim-only bubble. And as you point out yourself, his dad was against murder, not for it. It's possible to be homophobic and anti-killing. Yes he was clearly trying to link himself to some sort of Islamic extremism, but trying to work up the incoherence of supporting Hezbollah and then claiming a murder spree on behalf of Isis as him somehow being driven by ideology is just silly.

Obviously living in the west, he was not in a Muslim only bubble, I doubt a single western Islamist perpetrator has been either but they have been perpetrators or accessories.
How is going to a school means he is part of US southern conservatism?
His family moved from New York to eastern seabord Florida, ethnically mixed mostly democrat Port Saint Lucie where Obama beat Romney. Where is the dividing line anyway?
How on earth anyone can claim there is no ideology is completely puzzling to me. So far we don't have evidence of any southern Republican associates of his engaging in anti-homosexual talk but we do have evidence of his dad. No one knows where his wife has gotten to, so evidence will be slight.

Back on topic Owen Jones bigging up praise from Andrew Marr



because a rightist tweeted now deleted that Corbynists were idiots

 

[Rob Ray]

How is going to a school means he is part of US southern conservatism?

It doesn't inherently but as you say his dad brought him up very conservatively, implying he would be hanging out in primarily conservative circles and encouraged to do so at school. If you want broad stats then the school district itself is a Republican stronghold, though that doesn't necessarily mean much I suppose.

ow on earth anyone can claim there is no ideology is completely puzzling to me.

Well fortunately no-one's claimed that. Not that you'd twist a position or anything, but the claim is that he wasn't driven by a fundamentalist ideology.

we don't have evidence of any southern Republican associates of his engaging in anti-homosexual talk ... No one knows where his wife has gotten to, so evidence will be slight.

Yes, evidence is slight. And that's the trouble. You're making an assertion that he was driven primarily by an islamic fundamentalist creed. But the evidence for this is slight, and contradictory on its own terms. There's an array of possible - and logically, quite probable - other factors involved which don't reduce his motivations to "Islam hates the West" but those were completely ignored in favour of a narrative that met conservative requirements.

 

[sihhi]

It doesn't inherently but as you say his dad brought him up very conservatively, implying he would be hanging out in primarily conservative circles and encouraged to do so at school. If you want broad stats then the school district itself is a Republican stronghold, though that doesn't necessarily mean much I suppose.



Well fortunately no-one's claimed that. Not that you'd twist a position or anything, but the claim is that he wasn't driven by a fundamentalist ideology.



Yes, evidence is slight. And that's the trouble. You're making an assertion that he was driven primarily by an islamic fundamentalist creed. But the evidence for this is slight, and contradictory on its own terms. There's an array of possible - and logically, quite probable - other factors involved which don't reduce his motivations to "Islam hates the West" but those were completely ignored in favour of a narrative that met conservative requirements.

That school district is absolutely huge like the 20th biggest in the USA, where there are many many thousands of school districts,
the county might well be Republican but the built-up area where the home was Port St Lucie is democrat and was Obama over Romney. It's not southern conservatism that dominates.

The attack was apparently claimed for Islamists by the perpetrator.

It remained unclear why the FBI released only partial aspects of Mateen’s 911 calls, which constitute the lion’s share of evidence for his claimed allegiance to Isis, and continued to withhold the transcripts of his later calls to police. Reportedly, Mateen repeated his invented connections to the Boston Marathon bombers on the call, as well as pledging simultaneous loyalties to Isis enemy Hezbollah and rival al-Qaida.

It can't be wrong for it to be classed as an example of Islamist fundamentalist terror, can it? It is other things aswell but also a suicide attack done swearing loyalty to Islamist organisations, from someone who praised bin Laden.
Oklahoma city attack likewise, fundamentalist Militia patriot, Christian patriot if you like, terror.

Those other factors weren't ignored, they were debated and aired for about a fortnight afterwards then forgotten, the wife has disappeared and there.

 

[Rob Ray]

The attack was apparently claimed for Islamists by the perpetrator.

We've been through this repeatedly, in fact I addressed it in the post you first responded to. Yes he did claim to be doing it for Islam, but quite clearly he had no clear understanding about any of the fundamentals of Islam as he couldn't, for example, distinguish between Shia and Sunni sects. If I were to claim I did a shooting on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland but simultaneously said I was a member of the UVF and IRA would you take that claim seriously? People say shit all the time as justification for the things they wanted to do anyway.

 

[sihhi]

We've been through this repeatedly, in fact I addressed it in the post you first responded to. Yes he did claim to be doing it for Islam, but quite clearly he had no clear understanding about any of the fundamentals of Islam as he couldn't, for example, distinguish between Shia and Sunni sects. If I were to claim I did a shooting on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland but simultaneously said I was a member of the UVF and IRA would you take that claim seriously? People say shit all the time as justification for the things they wanted to do anyway.

His point is more likely something along the lines of I'm for Islam against Islam's oppressors, particularly homosexuality. Of course it's confused and unclear but it's not non-Islamist. In the west, living in western society his feeling on behalf of both Hezbullah and ISIS can make sense on its own terms. Both Hizbullah and ISIS claim behaviour on behalf of the ummeh, to defend it against its enemies.
We don't fully know what those words were on the phone to the police, the police still haven't released the full events, it's possible that Hezbollah was an earlier dalliance and ISIS was the final one.

I read in a French newspaper that one of the Paris attackers Ismail Omar Mustafa supported Tablighi Jamaat but then also supported ISIS and al-Qaeda at the same time so then also went to Syria to join al-Qaeda or ISIS.
When you get to details they have contradictory ideologies, but it's still Islamist behaviour even if the wires are crossed.

 

[sihhi]

To clarify, if someone grew up and lived in Lebanon then it would make little sense because Hezbollah and al Qaeda have been - since 2011 in particular - physical opponents.

 

[Rob Ray]

His point is more likely something along the lines of I'm for Islam against Islam's oppressors, particularly homosexuality.

Why? Is there something specifically "Islamist" about homophobia that isn't present in other parts of US society? I assume you don't subscribe to the idea that Muslims are inherently homophobic in a way that Christians aren't? And if not, what does this tell us about the actual root of the problem?

Of course it's confused and unclear but it's not non-Islamist.

There's no "of course" about it. If you're going to assert he's killing gays because of Islam then you've got to show he understood enough about Islam to justify that action. There is no evidence of this, and some evidence to the contrary, that he understood very little about Islam, but did hate gays and was a fanboy of violent machismo (eg. bragging he had terror links and wearing NYPD T-shirts).

 

[sihhi]

Why? Is there something specifically "Islamist" about homophobia that isn't present in other parts of US society? I assume you don't subscribe to the idea that Muslims are inherently homophobic in a way that Christians aren't? And if not, what does this tell us about the actual root of the problem?

There's no "of course" about it. If you're going to assert he's killing gays because of Islam then you've got to show he understood enough about Islam to justify that action. There is no evidence of this, and some evidence to the contrary, that he understood very little about Islam, but did hate gays and was a fanboy of violent machismo (eg. bragging he had terror links and wearing NYPD T-shirts).

Ok well Are you suggesting he didn't know about Islam but took his kid to evening prayer and sermon in the local mosque?

 

[Rob Ray]

I have no idea how learned he was in sum, but we do know his learning didn't stretch to which side of the biggest philosophical rift in Islam he believed in.

 

[sihhi]

Why? Is there something specifically "Islamist" about homophobia that isn't present in other parts of US society? I assume you don't subscribe to the idea that Muslims are inherently homophobic in a way that Christians aren't? And if not, what does this tell us about the actual root of the problem?

One possibility is that his expression of it was a very, very extreme form of immigrant conservative sunni Islam.
This doesn't mean 'Islam hates the West' or whatever, but it's a different kind of homophobia compared to say far-right anti-homosexual ideas or patriot anti-homosexual ideas or Baptist anti-homosexual ideas or Amish anti-homosexual ideas.

 

[Rob Ray]

One possibility is that his expression of it was a very, very extreme form of immigrant conservative sunni Islam.
This doesn't mean 'Islam hates the West' or whatever, but it's a different kind of homophobia compared to say far-right anti-homosexual ideas or patriot anti-homosexual ideas or Baptist anti-homosexual ideas or Amish anti-homosexual ideas.

Right so he's now a Sunni hardline fundamentalist NYPD fan, with a sideline of supporting Shia militias. And this sounds more plausible to you than a confused and possibly sexually repressed Taxi Driver type who latched onto a handy religious creed to justify murder?

 

[sihhi]

I have no idea how learned he was in sum, but we do know his learning didn't stretch to which side of the biggest philosophical rift in Islam he believed in.

Many if not most Sunnis in the west believe Islam is Islam you pray and follow the rules to gain god's favour thus save yourself from hellfire. Shiism is simply not even discussed in the kind of mosque school that he attended or his sisters volunteered at.

 

[Rob Ray]

Oh whatever, I'll leave you to explaining how a mosque in Florida you've never visited doesn't bother addressing fundamental tenets of the faith. This is just going to go round in circles.

 

[sihhi]

Right so he's now a Sunni hardline fundamentalist NYPD fan, with a sideline of supporting Shia militias. And this sounds more plausible to you than a confused and possibly sexually repressed Taxi Driver type who latched onto a handy religious creed to justify murder?

Does the Molenbeek terrorist also get the "confused and possibly sexually repressed Taxi Driver type" assignation or not?
What of the Boston terrorists? Paris? Gaziantep?

On the NYPD, there are plenty of conservative Muslims training across the world training to be police or prison or security guards etc, it's not relevant to the action taken here a target not against police but against a gay and lesbian nightclub.

 

[sihhi]

Oh whatever, I'll leave you to explaining how a mosque in Florida you've never visited doesn't bother addressing fundamental tenets of the faith. This is just going to go round in circles.

Sunni mosques explain Islam as the faith. If you go somewhere Shiite that's different it's either twelver or fiver or sevener or zaidi or nusayri or any number of other things and the heritage beyond Muhammed is important, for most Sunni mosques, sadly, it's based around the prophet and only the prophet's life and message.

To add: Yes I'm extrapolating from personal experience but this is what it's been like in Sunni mosques and their education courses in this country.

One reason mosques or any place of worship don't actually address the crucial tenets of their faith seriously is because to do so would slowly lead to adherents acculturated in that religion understanding the truth that central scriptures are of human origins.

 

[sihhi]

On BBC Newsnight: "the leadership [ie Corbyn] should not support reselection"

 

[Sue]

On BBC Newsnight: "the leadership [ie Corbyn] should not support reselection"

Thought he was quite annoying really.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I have no idea how learned he was in sum, but we do know his learning didn't stretch to which side of the biggest philosophical rift in Islam he believed in.

Most immigrant muslims don't care about that shit in the same way.

 

[sihhi]

Thought he was quite annoying really.

I swerved most of it. He added that Labour was the 'biggest political party in members in Western Europe'

 

[Smokeandsteam]

"University-educated middle-class professionals may take to Twitter to vent, but it is their cultural distance from working-class communities that May seeks to exploit"

An unusually perceptive piece from Owen Jones who seems to have noticed (20 odd years later than others it must be said) the absence of working class political representation and that it is the right who are orientating to it more effectively.

There’s a fight over working-class voters. Labour must not lose it | Owen Jones

 

[IC3D]

Pennies just dropped eh Owen.

 

[sihhi]

Pennies just dropped eh Owen.

It's a fraud of a piece in its main purpose:

Jeremy Corbyn toyed with progressive patriotism in his leader’s speech; he should persist with that and he must be positive. For as Labour thinker Jon Cruddas has pointed out, the party wins when it presents an optimistic vision of national reconstruction.

Blairist Cruddas together with Corbyn Jesus wept