BBC - Owen Jones
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FridgeMagnet
Administrator
STWC. But there is a massive SUTR presence (I'm there, or was, I'm getting something to eat now then heading back - they only left the square at half twelve).
Speeches opened with some pointed remarks about internal unity that I thought were aimed at OJ, though I doubt many people noticed or cared.
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crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
I also have extensive experience over the last 20 years of the SWP in both union and campaigns and have had multiple bad experiences with them. Wheras i differ greatly in politics with Socialist Party, RCG, AWL, CPGB, Green Party and the other lefty groups of various stripes that have come and gone during the years, and they have mostly all done sectarian or stupidly counterproductive things, this has not been on the same scale as the SWP - and i have never felt personally threatened by them. But time and time again i've seen disgusting behaviour from SWP and - i agree - from Labour (and also CPB) - and there have been occasions when its got very personally unpleasant (SWP members shouting in my face, telling people in my neighbourhood and union that i advocate violence, etc). Especially when those groups are working together as in with anti-racism.
The nadir of this was in 2013 when the labour party councillors involved in Newcastle Unites basically got the police to arrest 14 antifascists (7 RCG supporters, the rest anarchists, unaligned socialists, militant anti-fascists, and randoms) at the start of an anti-edl protest and SWP stewards were witnessed colluding with police with this.
The way they dealt with the rapes was the last straw - and any SWP members i had any respect for union-wise left at that point. As the open letter says
This is not about bad individuals. The SWP as a whole is an acute example of collective disregard for sexual violence. Their culture and leadership continues to put its own internal interests above tackling rape and supporting complainants within its ranks. Sexual assault and harassment are not unique to the SWP, or to left-wing organisations, but the SWP’s unwillingness to address its failings show it should not to be worked with...
... It is vital for women and non-binary people – particularly people of colour who wish to resist the racism they experience – to be able to organise politically without groups that facilitate or cover up sexual assault. The SWP and the campaigns they lead are demonstrably not capable of offering this.
... It is vital for women and non-binary people – particularly people of colour who wish to resist the racism they experience – to be able to organise politically without groups that facilitate or cover up sexual assault. The SWP and the campaigns they lead are demonstrably not capable of offering this.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
On what planet is Jones "racist" though?
Is there any hope for the Left in Labour now?
I can't see it shaking the spectre of Blair, Blairites and the fuckwitted futility of Corbyn. Shame.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
Yep, a common theme.
I find it frustrating that with so many wide open goals, from Piggate to Brexit, nobody from Labour managed to thump in a strike from the penalty box. To me there is no real opposition to the tories. Even Clegg has more teeth. Too much petty infighting and obsessive redefining of principles.
And Momentum serve only to cloud any view of reality Corbyn might have.
He needs to go.
pk
drink flounce rinse repeat
Then this is the last chance to put someone up that will do their job as opposition leader. Otherwise that's another victory for the tory bastards.
And yet more whiny handwringing angst from those on the Left.
It can't be that hard to gain enough support to win an election from all the frustrated Remainers, anti-Trump activists and those old enough to see the familiar pattern of tory corruption, surely?
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
And as I said, no problem with your decision not to work with them.
On the other hand OJ's (and others) attempts to sabotage anti-racist initiatives are classic sectarianism.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
What about working with Hope not Hate and Searchlight? Are they welcome on demos/should they be worked with?
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
No i wouldn't work with them because i don't trust them, i think they probably are involved with monitoring antifascists for the state. I have always argued against groups using their material/affiliating with them. Its hard to completely avoid them when unions support them though.
Right now they aren't involved in organising many demos though.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Seymour wrote a piece about the tactical utility or otherwise of boycotting SWP-related events, which is kind of similar to a discussion I was having in the pub last night: LENIN'S TOMB: "Hard arguments"
FFS, there are plenty of issues here to give it direction, not least the deaths from the brutal welfare sanctions, I find it beyond comprehension that many many thousands of the liberal left can go and see I daniel blake, then come out in tears, and then do absolutely nothing. Then of course, the Trump comes along and they are all on the streets. It is as if they couldn't wait to not have to think about the 100's of deaths as a direct consequence of the brutal welfare reforms or the misery SADP face , ones that are to be intensified as the State now demands access to NHS records etc and will work with medical authorities, etc, to put pressure on people to force them into work.
I am aware of someone who has IBS, has been in a cafe with excrement running down her legs as she couldn't make to the toilet, she had her benefits stopped, what about her, doesn't she count in this identity politics top trumps?
Who is saying that Trump, a dangerous proto-autocrat and his henchmen like Bannon aren't important and need challenging, its is the nature of the mobilising and its intensity(and band wagon jumping) as opposed to things happening here in the U.K, It beggars belief that for nearly ten years i and others have been asking the wider left to do something, why wasn't a sustainable coalition against the reforms(the disabled led one collapsed through lack of support) set up, they are quick to set up ones on global issues, there have been hundreds of deaths, actual ones, isn't that enough, ff.
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
I think that these trump protests have been so big first of all because a lot of people were disgusted by his misogyny and the rape allegations against him, and more recently because a lot of people are genuinely frightened about what he's capable of doing (ie he has the nuclear button etc). I think its a reaction to events, and i think the response has more to do with the mainstream media than anything "the left" has done. The coalition(s) are on the one hand just a way of coordinating tasks and resources for the protests, and on the other hand a way for various groups to capitalise on the tide of public feeling for their own ends.
There's never been so many people out on the streets against benefit cuts/for sadp because we've had about 15 years of "scroungers" rhetoric from politicians and media. Also, the benefits and social care systems are complicated (perhaps deliberately so) so many people (even people who are good on other issues) just don't understand the issues if they haven't experienced it themselves. And many of the reforms and cuts mean that either by coincidence or design benefits claimants and sick and disabled people don't get pushed together as much (ie no dole queue any more, being sent to private providers not just the jobcentre, day centres closed down etc) so there's less oppurtunity to organise.
Yes there have been some crap attitudes around benefits cuts and sadp from some sections of the organised left, liberal left, and anarchist/radical milleu. For example not wanting to criticise pre-corbyn labour policy too much, or saying thst unemployed people (and therefore sadp) are not a "revolutionary force" and therefore there's no point organising on those issues, or prioritising action camps rather than day-to-day action.
To be fair though there have been groups that have done a fair bit on this though - for example unite community, solfed, socialist party, a methodist group, and dpac have all organised stuff on benefits and social care cuts locally in the last year or so, and other groups have attended these protests. Part of the difficulty is its not just something you can just protest - people need support and lots of energy goes into that.
I don't really have answers to this, but i don't think its productive getting upset at some monolithic left, and i think its worth thinking about how issues can be linked up.
ska invita
back on the other side
" Some time after I left that splinter, I found out that it had its own rape cover-up."
IS that Rs21? what splinter did Seymour go to? Another rape cover up?
Thats not true really, there have been lots of anti-austerity and anti-bankers actions. The biggest was in March 2011 which saw at least half a million people march in London. The Trade Unions got their shit together and bussed people down from all over the country.
Arguably you could blame the TUs for not doing more...the march was done with some reluctance IIRC, and was designed to shut up activists asking for more. thats how i remember it anyway
timelapse of that demo
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
ISN. iirr it was sexual abuse short of rape, but I might be misrecalling. A complaint had been made, but never properly pursued, in part because of the actions of the accuseds sister. The cover up only came to light after the organization had disbanded.
Austerity and bankers actions are not specifically about benefit cuts, like CTB says these need many allies to be successful.
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
Fair enough - there was a big wave of anti-austerity action, and i certainly think that benefit cuts were seen as one of the things people were protesting against. I think there were problems around the prominence that sick and disabled people or benefits cuts were given within some of the protests (ie in terms of publicity, speakers, etc) - including the 2011 March - in that case resulting from people not criticising what was Labour policy at the time.
On that TUC march i spoke to quite a few people, including lots of teachers, I was very very surprised how many of these middle class people supported at least the principle of the welfare reforms, most of them will now have seen I Daniel Blake, i wonder how they feel now.
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Yup, sadly this occurs more often than some folks would ever admit.
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