BBC - Owen Jones

[krtek a houby]

I'm not familiar with the IRA membership procedure but if you said your allegiance was with the IRA then I'd think you believed you were doing it on behalf of the IRA.

I might "believe" it, in a delusional sense.

 

[Sue]

well, the way he also said he was hezbollah and hamas kinda contradicts it. Clearly he was inspired by islamic fundamentalism in a genereic sense, but to tie him to any particular group seems well wide of the mark

Was there not recent research indicating that here at least, young men becoming radicalised often had a very poor grasp of the religion they purported to be fighting for and of the various groups involved? (About to go out so not got time to find a link just now.)

 

[belboid]

I'm not familiar with the IRA membership procedure but if you said your allegiance was with the IRA then I'd think you believed you were doing it on behalf of the IRA.

When I was 17, I rang up my college and told them I was the INLA and that' we'd planted a device in the building. I dont think I ever thought I was doing that on their behalf, they certainly never sent me a thank you note.

Was there not recent research indicating that here at least, young men becoming radicalised often had a very poor grasp of the religion they purported to be fighting for and of the various groups involved? (About to go out so not got time to find a link just now.)

That does sound familiar and abouit right

 

[YouSir]

Was there not recent research indicating that here at least, young men becoming radicalised often had a very poor grasp of the religion they purported to be fighting for and of the various groups involved? (About to go out so not got time to find a link just now.)

Same applies to a fair few of the young men fighting for religion everywhere.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

you're fucking kidding, arent you? Its full of fucking crackpots and imbeciles

I wasn't referring to the Daily Mail trolls, but now you come to mention it

 

[Joe Reilly]

For substantial read circumstantial?

OK to clarify: there is substantial circumstantial evidence pointing to Islamism as a critical factor.

For example it is now alleged he tried to befriend the owner of another gay bar a couple of days before. But when the guy checked his friends list it was just people talking Arabic. So he knocked him back because "it didn't make sense". That club was closed on the day of the attack.
As well as Disney World it also suggested there may have been other targets.
Targets he scoped out with his wife. Tactically not dissimilar to the San Bernadino couple.
He went to Saudi Arabia twice in the last five years it is reported.
He was in contact with and went to same mosque as America's first suicide bomber, Moner Mohammed Abu Jalha
He was also in regular contact with Dwayne Roberston an ex-Marine convert, cleric and heavy-weight ISIS recruiter.
He made an emergency call just before he started shooting claiming allegiance to ISIS
Told one victim he was doing it 'for his country',
Cited the Tsaranev brothers who executed the Boston bombing in his last communique with police.
Employed indiscriminate slaughter to induce the greatest terror in wider society.
The kill ratio itself suggests both calmness and some level of military training.
He didn't commit suicide or surrender.
Finally the taking of hostages (after the massacre) to maintain the media spotlight and dominate the news agenda for as long as possible which is something straight out of the ISIS playbook.
"God allowed Omar Mateen, one of the soldiers of the caliphate to carry out an attack entering a crusader gathering in a nightclub in Orlando killing and wounding more than 100 of them" (Isis's Albayan radio station.)

* "Make Ramadam the month of conquest and Jihad...make it a month of calamity for non-believers everywhere especially in Europe and America"
Abu Mohamed Al-Adnani
May2016

*April 2016
Speaker at the Husseni islamic Centre in Orlando

"Lets get rid of them (homosexuals) NOW!"

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well there is this for starters.....

And are you saying the Guardian comments section is not representative of left opinion by the way? Bizarre shit.

Representative of left-liberal Toynbeeist hand-wringing opinion, maybe.

 

[chilango]

OK to clarify: there is substantial circumstantial evidence pointing to Islamism as a critical factor.

For example it is now alleged he tried to befriend the owner of another gay bar a couple of days before. But when the guy checked his friends list it was just people talking Arabic. So he knocked him back because "it didn't make sense". That club was closed on the day of the attack.
As well as Disney World it also suggested there may have been other targets.
Targets he scoped out with his wife. Tactically not dissimilar to the San Bernadino couple.
He went to Saudi Arabia twice in the last five years it is reported.
He was in contact with and went to same mosque as America's first suicide bomber, Moner Mohammed Abu Jalha
He was also in regular contact with Dwayne Roberston an ex-Marine convert, cleric and heavy-weight ISIS recruiter.
He made an emergency call just before he started shooting claiming allegiance to ISIS
Told one victim he was doing it 'for his country',
Cited the Tsaranev brothers who executed the Boston bombing in his last communique with police.
Employed indiscriminate slaughter to induce the greatest terror in wider society.
The kill ratio itself suggests both calmness and some level of military training.
He didn't commit suicide or surrender.
Finally the taking of hostages (after the massacre) to maintain the media spotlight and dominate the news agenda for as long as possible which is something straight out of the ISIS playbook.
"God allowed Omar Mateen, one of the soldiers of the caliphate to carry out an attack entering a crusader gathering in a nightclub in Orlando killing and wounding more than 100 of them" (Isis's Albayan radio station.)

Y'see the three things I've bolded might start to suggest a greater possibility of an organisational link. It'll be interesting to see if more comes out about these.

 

[hot air baboon]

Fealty and Modern Terrorism

During his deadly attack on a packed Orlando nightclub where he killed 50 people and wounded many more, Omar Mateen called 911.

On the recorded call, he pledge his loyalty to ISIS.

A day later, a terrorist outside of Paris, used Facebook livestreaming to pledge his loyalty to ISIS while stabbing a police chief and his wife to death.

What's going on?

The answer is that these pledges aren't simply expressions of loyalty, they are expressions of fealty, a much more powerful means of connection.

Fealty is something we haven't seen since the middle ages. ISIS became capable of employing fealty once it rebuilt a barebones Caliphate and it is using it to transform modern terrorism.

To understand this, let's dig into fealty a bit.

• Fealty is a strict, lifelong pledge of loyalty from a vassal to a lord. It's public and irreversible. (If you watch Game of Thrones, it's why everyone hates the Kingslayer, even if he was justified in his actions)
  
  
• Fealty obligates the vassal to act in the service of the lord, without any need for specific direction. It also gives the protection of the lord to the vassal (in a religious context, salvation and redemption).
  
  
• Fealty made it possible to build large, geographically segmented networks in a world without instant communications and rapid travel.

Fealty allows ISIS to get around some of problems of modern open source insurgency. For example:

• A potential terrorist shouldn't express fealty until the attack. Benefit: This prevents discovery during the grooming process.
  
  
• A public expression of fealty (FB, Twitter..) provides them with instant acceptance by the "lord" Benefit: this provides them spiritual protection for the attack and maximizes the publicity for ISIS
  
  
• A Jihadi, or their local network, shouldn't ask for permission, planning, or support. They should act on their own. The attack itself is a demonstration of loyalty. Benefit: this reduces chances of discovery and maximizes the innovative potential of the global network.

The more I think about it, fealty is an extremely useful way of harnessing and directing the power of an open source insurgency (aka, herding cats).

 

[Joe Reilly]

You are correct, the Owen Jones walk off was prompted by an attempt by the presenter and JHB to deny that this was a hate crime against LGBT people.

When it came up that there had been a second arrest elsewhere, Jones by this stage in a deep silent sulk still roused himself to interject "he wasn't a Muslim!" which chimed-with his narrative that this was pure and simply a hate crime motivated by homophobia and nothing else. And as such could really only be understood by gay men like himself.

PS Belboid is never 'correct'.

 

[Biscuitician]

Wankstain Murray of course has to earn his keep; getting funding for his laughable imperialist arms manufacturer fellating shit show by trotting out the tired islamism card

 

[Spymaster]

When it came up that there had been a second arrest elsewhere, Jones by this stage in a deep silent sulk still roused himself to interject "he wasn't a Muslim!" which chimed-with his narrative that this was pure and simply a hate crime motivated by homophobia and nothing else. And as such could really only be understood by gay men like himself.

Careful. You'll have Bellend calling you a homophobe in a minute!

 

[cantsin]

OK to clarify: there is substantial circumstantial evidence pointing to Islamism as a critical factor.

For example it is now alleged he tried to befriend the owner of another gay bar a couple of days before. But when the guy checked his friends list it was just people talking Arabic. So he knocked him back because "it didn't make sense". That club was closed on the day of the attack.
As well as Disney World it also suggested there may have been other targets.
Targets he scoped out with his wife. Tactically not dissimilar to the San Bernadino couple.
He went to Saudi Arabia twice in the last five years it is reported.
He was in contact with and went to same mosque as America's first suicide bomber, Moner Mohammed Abu Jalha
He was also in regular contact with Dwayne Roberston an ex-Marine convert, cleric and heavy-weight ISIS recruiter.
He made an emergency call just before he started shooting claiming allegiance to ISIS
Told one victim he was doing it 'for his country',
Cited the Tsaranev brothers who executed the Boston bombing in his last communique with police.
Employed indiscriminate slaughter to induce the greatest terror in wider society.
The kill ratio itself suggests both calmness and some level of military training.
He didn't commit suicide or surrender.
Finally the taking of hostages (after the massacre) to maintain the media spotlight and dominate the news agenda for as long as possible which is something straight out of the ISIS playbook.
"God allowed Omar Mateen, one of the soldiers of the caliphate to carry out an attack entering a crusader gathering in a nightclub in Orlando killing and wounding more than 100 of them" (Isis's Albayan radio station.)

all seems to point that way, but as he was also confirmed to be active on Grindr / going to gay clubs etc ,nothing straightfwd about any of it .

Although it would be hard to argue that the religio-political culture to which he attached himself / immersed himself ( in some ways ) didn't play a signifcant part in the final self hate / other hate inspired murder rampage.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Careful. You'll have Bellend calling you a homophobe in a minute!

I was quite pleased he turned up actually. As he tends to pick the wrong side in every discussion. Plus he'll still be on here to have the last word (something like Bollocks!) long after every one else has packed up and gone.

 

[belboid]

excellent company you're keeping now Joe. At least you're coming out as a plain old right winger now

Funny that you've ignored everything I've actually said, I wonder if that is because it contradicts your rightist nonsense

 

[Spymaster]

I was quite pleased he turned up actually. As he tends to pick the wrong side in every discussion. Plus he'll still be on here to have the last word (something like Bollocks!) long after every one else has packed up and gone.

His thought processes are just completely binary. He'll call you a tory next.

 

[Spymaster]

excellent company you're keeping now Joe. At least you're coming out as a plain old right winger now

LOL!

QED

 

[belboid]

I am delighted to be hated by two such utter wankers. Thank you, you deserve each other.

 

[Spymaster]

I am delighted to be hated by two such utter wankers. Thank you, you deserve each other.

I don't hate you, Bellend. You're a brainless fuckwit, but that amuses me.

 

[YouSir]

What a shit thread this has turned into.

 

[belboid]

I don't hate you, Bellend. You're a brainless fuckwit, but that amuses me.

stop following me around you repugnant creep.

 

[Spymaster]

stop following me around you repugnant creep.

Get fucked.

 

[editor]

Time to employ forced mutual ignore on Spymaster and belboid in the name of world peace etc. Lasts for a month.

 

[Spymaster]

Fair enough. Fleas in our ears from the editor.

Bellend will probably try to shoot his.

 

[Joe Reilly]

all seems to point that way, but as he was also confirmed to be active on Grindr / going to gay clubs etc ,nothing straightfwd about any of it .

Although it would be hard to argue that the religio-political culture to which he attached himself / immersed himself ( in some ways ) didn't play a signifcant part in the final self hate / other hate inspired murder rampage.

Very good point. Not sure however your other observation has actually been 'confirmed' as such. The motivation for individuals saying so a) might simply be for their 15 minutes of fame or b) to blacken his name in the eyes of Muslims who they think might be otherwise sympathetic. The story for instance of him attempting to pick up a man (who remains anonymous) who was still in the closet in 2006, if the attacker was in the closet himself just dosen't ring true. Also the claim that he 'tried' to pick up men, suggesting he was perennially unsuccessful, but why would that be? Even if he was it is hardly either or. The 9/11 bombers went on a protracted drink and hooker jolly prior to the attack. While loads of the Nazis leant in that direction ('Out of every Hitler Youth emerges a member of the SS' as the old joke went) and it didn't make them any less Nazi did it? However the tapping up the owner of another gay bar (plan b?) just a couple of days before the attack does hint at a reasoning behind the orientation other than an overtly sexual one.

 

[krtek a houby]

When it came up that there had been a second arrest elsewhere, Jones by this stage in a deep silent sulk still roused himself to interject "he wasn't a Muslim!" which chimed-with his narrative that this was pure and simply a hate crime motivated by homophobia and nothing else. And as such could really only be understood by gay men like himself.

PS Belboid is never 'correct'.

Why did he target a gay club?

 

[Spymaster]

Why did he target a gay club?

Because he was also homophobic.

 

[krtek a houby]

Because he was also homophobic.

How about a self loathing homophobic bigot first and foremost, with ISIS and religion in second place?

 

[Spymaster]

Quite possibly. But no way to be sure at the moment.

 

[DotCommunist]

all my actions are guided by a coherent set of ideas. In no way would there be a lot of bleed through and confusion. Because I am a robot