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BBC - Owen Jones

Many of them; deeply ingrained homophobia.
Fair enough. And when they start chucking gay men off buildings or butchering them as in Orlando, which then attracts headlines such as 'Death toll rises to 50 in bar where perverted homosexuals go' in places like Canada then we may be able to draw an equivalence.
 
Fair enough. And when they start chucking gay men off buildings or butchering them as in Orlando, which then attracts headlines such as 'Death toll rises to 50 in bar where perverted homosexuals go' in places like Canada then we may be able to draw an equivalence.

I seem to remember the NY Post describing George Michael as a "washed up pervert" and "pop perv".

That's mainstream, Christian US press only a decade ago.
 
Yes, but according to his second wife, who was with him, he had a look at Disney World first. Deterred by metal detectors apparently.

So, it would have been Disney, if he could. It definitely, definitely couldn't have been anything to do with a hate crime against LGBT people? Or even a self hate crime, given his alleged internal strife and issues?
 
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Another atrocity carried out by a young Muslim. And as usual the Owen Joneses of this world miss the point entirely.

In a world where stupid generalisations are frowned upon, it is depressing that generalising about ‘Muslims’ is standard fare for non-Muslims – both ‘Islamophobic’ chauvinists and their equally irrational, ‘Islamophilic’ opposites.

It is as unintelligent to assert Islam is inherently peaceful and tolerant as it is to assert the opposite. From US presidents to Guardian writers, so many make claims of what ‘real’ Islam is. Yet this denies the truth apparent – this massively diverse ideology, drawn from vast, complicated and often disputed texts, has no single interpretation. What’s more, there is no universally accepted hierarchy in Islam. We don’t have the equivalent of the Pope, Archbishop or Chief Rabbi.

Therefore, to all practical purposes, Islam is whatever the individual Muslim believes it is.

Those beliefs will be shaped by what that individual is told, taught and shown. They are moulded by the individual’s ancestral culture, their parents, their mosque and/or madrassa, their Islamic society, their peers, their ‘community’ and the Islamic channels they watch at home. The prominent Muslim figures they listen to. The blogs and internet forums they access online.

That’s why focusing on what Muslims actually believe is so much more pertinent than the usual ‘verse-quoting’ and quibbling over what is, and is not, ‘real’ Islam.


http://hurryupharry.org/2016/06/13/...oneses-of-this-world-miss-the-point-entirely/

This is written by I think a Muslim and yes it is on Harrys Place, but I wonder what people think?

This is the authors twitter to get more info on him.

Mehrdad Amanpour (@MehrdadAmanpour) on Twitter
 
Fair enough. And when they start chucking gay men off buildings or butchering them as in Orlando, which then attracts headlines such as 'Death toll rises to 50 in bar where perverted homosexuals go' in places like Canada then we may be able to draw an equivalence.

I'm not drawing a direct equivalence in terms of what is done by members of each group in the name of that group, I don't need to because I think this is a really typical US rampage murder spree, not a religiously-inspired incident of political terrorism. As others have pointed out, during the short period when we knew roughly what had happened but not who had done it, there were all sorts of questions about the identity of the shooter but one thing was always absolutely certain; it was a man.

Why so certain? Because rampage killers always are.

Which is why the best work that's been done on what makes people do this kind of thing inevitably has to discuss issues surrounding masculinity and in particular the public performance of masculinity and why violence is a crucial resort for men who fear that their own (publically-defined) masculinity is in doubt. A key crisis issue for such men is homosexual men - 'men who are not real men' in their eyes.

When the target is an LGBT venue that issue is even more obviously salient.

The idea that this was a radicalised political islamic attack is daft frankly, especially as more details come out; I see this guy was claiming allegiance to IS and also to Hezbollah - yet the latter are basically an ethnic, clan-based South Lebanese shi-ite group who would be regarded as revolting heretics by IS.

He knew nothing at all about the middle east or its islamist politics, not surprising really as he's just another typical American man committing a gotterdammerung American male suicide via a flamboyant public display of hyper-violence, a suicide-form that is highly culturally available in the USA, it's almost become the go-to way to do it.
 
You think? I'm more inclined to believe that it was an attack on western values - people out at night, enjoying a rock gig in this instance. And I wouldn't be surprised if the attack on Pulse was inspired by that. I don't see these two attacks as existing separately. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I think we'll see more lone wolf attacks on entertainment venues, clubs and bars, gay or straight, now that idea is out there.

Or a manifestation of good old Western values; alienated and disgruntled individual finds an honourable cause which gives him the excuse to go out and slaughter people and usually obtain martyr status; it's as American as apple pie. Remember Colombine, Oklahoma, Colorado springs Charleston etc

The perpetrators of all these atrocities are just following in John Wayne's hoof-steps.
 
Really...just a few nuances? How about some actual confirmation of the diagnosis, a verified history of trauma, evidence of comorbidity and history of substance misuse (all characteristics which increase the chances of impulsive rather than premeditated violence), that's before we move away from your preferred 'medical' explanation to look at the potential impacts of factors such as weapons availability, ideological commitment, religious belief or homophobia (in this instance there seems to be some emerging evidence of possible self loathing).

So rather than hanging the deaths of 49 people on the convenient peg of bi-polar disorder (and thus avoiding all of the stigmatizing baggage and easy assumptions that go with such a superficial comment), why not step back and take a little longer to see how things develop?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

It's your emphasis on my words, not mine, to characterise what I said as 'hanging the deaths on the convenient peg of bi-polar disorder'. My emphasis and intention was to offer an alternative, some of it based on his wife's actual words which I now regret using and apologise for, to the explantion that was being jumped to that this was obviously an organised ISIS plot. My comments in this thread started from the basis of solidly defending Owen Jones for his analysis of, and disgust at Sky's refusal to accept, this as a homophobic attack.

So take out bi-polar which was never my emphasis, as explained and apologised for, and instead see it as mentally disturbed man with inner demons and possible issues about his own sexuality, (the facts that are coming out now that I alluded neither of us knew yet), going on a rampage made easy by the availability of guns in the USA. A man who has so little grasp of ideology that he claims allegiance to both ISIS and Hezbollah without even being aware of any incompatibility.

My posts were standing against Joe Reilly and his insistence on the absolute proof of an ISIS-led ideological attack. I don't think I'm being proved so wrong so far, despite a couple of people's misinterpretations of my emphasis.
 
Hartley-Brewer has forgotten that useful old adage: "When you're in a hole, stop digging". If she carries on at this rate, she should be in Australia by teatime tomorrow.
The Orlando shooting is not about Owen Jones, despite what his hate-mob would have you think

If Owen Jones wants to live in a world where people can only say what is on the officially approved list of platitudes, then perhaps he has more in common with Islamic State than he thinks.

:facepalm:
 
...Salman told federal authorities on Sunday that her husband had more recently been "scouting Downtown Disney and Pulse [nightclub] for attacks."

I hope this is not unseemly levity, but if you're doing something else and glance at this page, you know, sort of seeing it in the corner or the eye, but not seeing properly, then there's the interesting notion of him scouting Downton Abbey for his murderous spree.
 
Omar Mateen may not have understood the difference between ISIS, al-Qaeda and Hezbollah

In the early hours of Sunday morning, Omar Mateen killed at least 49 people during an attack on the popular gay nightclub Pulse in Orlando. During the attack, Mateen placed a 911 call and told the operator that his actions were motivated by his hardcore Islamist beliefs. However, Mateen's comments about Islam suggested that while his viewpoints were no doubt extreme, they were also confused, perhaps even incoherent.
 
Owen, a Guardian columnist and political commentator who also happens to be gay, was, understandably, very upset and angry about the news from Orlando when he arrived in the green room

He had had a bad day, was tired and emotional, and was spoiling for a fight.

Yeah. You could see straight away that Jones was distressed. It was the first thing that struck me watching the video.

Hartley-Brewer acknowledges that she noted it too. Yet, expressed no empathy, no human concern for the visibly distraught man sat next to her.

Nope, instead she gleefully poked him till he couldn't take it anymore.

Nice.
 
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Omar Mateen may not have understood the difference between ISIS, al-Qaeda and Hezbollah

In the early hours of Sunday morning, Omar Mateen killed at least 49 people during an attack on the popular gay nightclub Pulse in Orlando. During the attack, Mateen placed a 911 call and told the operator that his actions were motivated by his hardcore Islamist beliefs. However, Mateen's comments about Islam suggested that while his viewpoints were no doubt extreme, they were also confused, perhaps even incoherent.
much about his life seems to have been confused, perhaps even incoherent
 
..it seems to be the source of the story afaics...that she knew what he was up to...a passive rather than active role...

FYI the wife says he "scouted" these locations with her. It's entirely plausible and likely that they went to these places and with the benefit of hindsight she thinks perhaps they were "scouting missions", and it's being misreported. Cause the media never does that.
 
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