brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yeah, but you wouldn't have been there in the first place, would you? He takes Murdoch's £.
BBC - Owen Jones
- Thread starter Zabo
- Start date
gosub
~#
It is, in one way,a major step forward, presenting LGBT as average Joe soaps. But it was vacuous. I had the Admiral Duncan in my head way before the bloke in the gallery screamed it in his ear. I don't go to these sort of places often,they are not aimed at me for a start, and I find them predatory meat markets, last time I found myself in one was a year ago but I was shocked at the number of cuts and bruises on display. I like progressive pubs where sexuality isn't an issue and would like a society that felt similar, but I don't think its right to pretend we are at that stage.
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nino_savatte
No pasaran!
*shrugs* Don't be such a pedant.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I respect him for walking, but I'll respect him even more if he doesn't walk back.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
On Sky News last night, I realised how far some will go to ignore homophobia | Owen Jones
I am reluctant to dwell too much on my appearance on Sky News last night, because this isn’t about me, so let’s just use it as a case study. In sum, I walked off in disgust during a discussion about the massacre: it was an instinctive reaction to an unpleasant and untenable situation. The presenter continually and repeatedly refused to accept that this was an attack on LGBT people. This was an attack “against human beings”, he said, and “the freedom of all people to try to enjoy themselves”. He not only refused to accept it as an attack on LGBT people, but was increasingly agitated that I – as a gay man – would claim it as such.
I am reluctant to dwell too much on my appearance on Sky News last night, because this isn’t about me, so let’s just use it as a case study. In sum, I walked off in disgust during a discussion about the massacre: it was an instinctive reaction to an unpleasant and untenable situation. The presenter continually and repeatedly refused to accept that this was an attack on LGBT people. This was an attack “against human beings”, he said, and “the freedom of all people to try to enjoy themselves”. He not only refused to accept it as an attack on LGBT people, but was increasingly agitated that I – as a gay man – would claim it as such.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I thought you were doing really well until (and when) you walked off. You gave good media, unlike the knuckle-dragging presenter. Yeah, could have head butted the asshole but apart from that, spot on. (Now think twice about going back for the Sky dollar?)
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
showed mrestraint in not giving a middle finger as well.
on the proviso you buy him some non-chequed shirts.
Wookey
Muppet is not a slur
I can't acquiesce to that, plaid is part of our culture.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
He would have been 'right' and his outrage understandable only if at the time of broadcast it had been thought to be the action of an entirely random attacker. But this was not the case. As a 'soldier' of Isis, hatred of gays is unlikely to have been the only or even primary motivation of the attacker. Isis do throw gay men from tall buildings, but they also behead Christians, as well as fellow Muslims, English tourists, seek out Jews as well as burning Yazidi girls in cages and so on. This time it was the gay community in Orlando. Today, tomorrow, someone else, somewhere else. Against a background of a general slaughter his stomping off was ill-judged at best. "This isn't about me' he says now. But he did appear to think it all about himself on the night.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
We don't know (yet, at least) what "being a soldier of ISIS" actually means in this case. How integrated he was, if at all in their structures. Thus, I don't think it's (yet) possible to place his motivations fully within those of IS. As things stand Jones' contention that it was a homophobic crime is valid enough, even if other motives emerge in due course.
However, as I said there are bigger questions but we won't be getting answers to them from Jones or from Sky News.
No, I really doubt he was. Is there such a thing in America?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
If he says he is, he is.
Not that it detracts from Jones' point; it clearly was a specifically homophobic act of terror.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
But there is no clear evidence of an IS link.
Orlando shootings: 'No clear evidence' of IS link - BBC News
There ARE comments attributed to the attacker of how he was disgusted by men kissing. Owen Jones did not make this about himself on the Sky programme, he merely tried defending the obvious against ignorance. If ISIS blow up a synagogue there isn't a person who says it's not anti-Semitic. An attack on French people out enjoying themselves is an 'attack against western values'. This was an attack, a terrorist attack, on the gay community. All he did was call it for what it was.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
He was, as they say, 'known' to the FBI and interviewed more than once.
He is reported to phoned 911 prior to attacks lest their be any doubts about his motives.
He was 'a soldier of the Caliphate' according to Isis outlet.
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
He was born and brought up in the USA, he was violent to his wife who had to be rescued by her family. She says he wasn't interested in religion, but was fascinated by guns. This has got a lot more to do with his fucked-up masculinity than ISIS (not that the two are incompatible of course).
Hatred of gay men and a drive to use violence against them is typical of men with this kind of pov; ISIS merely becomes the culturally-available way to express it if you have muslim heritage.
gosub
~#
I disagree. We have unfortunately had numerous attacks from the beheading of Lee Rigby where women were considered bystanders til the police woman nobbled them, the Paris attacks - christian nutters were quite quick out the block to call eagles of death metal satanist rather than an ironically named and I'm sure the attackers made the same mislabelling, a Jewish supermarket and a gay club that have shown it isn't artibitary. There are tiers to their fucked up hatred and those within those groups need to be warned to be especially vigilant.
The narrative of IS could strike any where entirely at random actually plays into IS's hands in terms of 'terror' and the but that we safer here coz we have gun control, yes but
no wonder the producer screamed Compton street nail bomb in his ear.planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Yeah. Interviewed twice. Which, as you say, is more than once. And cleared.
Yeah. Phoned 911 at the very last minute. And ISIS are well known for giving warnings aren't they?
Yeah. ISIS news agency claims successful mass murderer as one of their own. Big fucking surprise there.
How about 'mentally disturbed bi-polar twat goes on killing rampage of gays and claims topic of the day (Islamic Fundamentalism) as justification'?
Soldier of the Caliphate my arse.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
He wasn't 'cleared'. No more than the many other terrorists, including London Paris of Belgian Islamist attackers, that initially came to the attention of the authorities were ever 'cleared' either.
He didn't phone-in to supply a warning. His intention was to make sure his motivations would not be mid-construed afterwards: 'he once saw gay men kissing' he was 'mentally ill' etc.
Are all the other 'soldiers of the Caliphate' mentally disturbed bi-polar twats simply 'claiming topic of the day' or is there do you sense a bit of a pattern?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
There's no evidence, yet, that he was part of IS's command structures, subject to its organisational discipline or that his target was selected to further IS's goals.
Would he have targeted a Yazidi community centre instead if there was one near by? Did he target one of Orlando's numerous churches?
No.
Would he have targeted a Yazidi community centre instead if there was one near by? Did he target one of Orlando's numerous churches?
No.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
How about not?
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
It's obviously unlikely the call was meant to be a warning but equally it seems really clear to me that his primary motive is far more likely to be extreme homophobia - possibly related to concerns about his own sexuality (or at least concerns over how his sexuality was perceived in macho USA culture where his own family cultural behavioural norms were likely to be seen as effeminate and sexually suspect by many men).
A typical macho response to feelings of humiliation or shame - maybe the archetypical one - is violence. Hating homosexuals and seeking to kill them is the purest way of representing your own gender status as unimpeachably masculine.
Do you seriously think that this guy's obsessive machismo, his narcissism, his gun-fetishing, his history of violence to women, that these are epi-phenomenal here? That the *real* reason for murdering 50 random probably-gay strangers was that he suddenly got into islam?
You've got the cart before the horse.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
ItWillNeverWork Look, if you want to go against the words of his wife he beat up, that's up to you. If you wanna argue about the validity or political correctness of my use of the word twat, I reckon you'd have a better argument.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Well it's obviously missing out a few nuances about the availability of guns in the USA and probably a few facts neither of us know yet but I reckon it's a better start than Joe Reilly is offering, yes.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
His wife beaten up by him doesn't make her *description* of him as 'bipolar' the equivalent of a *diagnosis* of BP, nor a valid reason on its own to believe his apparent bipolar was a factor in his mass-murdering
What evidence, apart from his ex-wife saying he 'was bipolar', is there that he had Bipolar? What evidence that it had an impact on his killing of lots of people?
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
I reckon his wife's words, someone who suffered at his hands, might be a better starting point than what's been said on this thread by some people before, and certainly more of a concern than yours for crossing every t and dotting every I at this point for the sake of...what exactly? I don't think your worry about me supposedly miscasting every bipolar person as a potential terrorist, which I'm certainly not doing, kinda outweighs these events in any way whatsoever. You are free to disagree.
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