Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[Funky_monks]

It's really not, you know.

I'm not the only person to tell you that you haven't read my posts.
Last time you conveniently described them as obfuscation, presumably because you either could be arsed to read them, or because you didn't understand them.

 

[DaphneM]

Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!

So its a total win for the rich to have their premium organic burgers whilst poor people are forced to be vegetarians?

Doesn't sound cut and dried to me!

 

[editor]

Why would a 2017 report say its superceded by a 2018 one?
They aren't clairvoyants

Yes I guess it would be impossible for the authors to out in a link to the new research if their previous study had actually been 'superseded.'

What a ridiculous claim.

 

[Funky_monks]

You certainly know how to dismiss/ignore/belittle any research or articles that don't chime with your pro-meat worldview. Sometimes you achieve this in under 180 seconds.

You do understand that you haven't discovered most of your sources/arguments and given that I a) read the press and b)design degree level curricula on the Agricultural sciences, I've probably already either a) read them or b) read the research that underpins them

 

[Funky_monks]

Yes I guess it would be impossible for the authors to out in a link to the new research if their previous study had actually been 'superseded.'

What a ridiculous claim.

It was written and published in 2017, how the fuck would they know to write about research published a year in the fucking future?

 

[editor]

So its a total win for the rich to have their premium organic burgers whilst poor people are forced to be vegetarians?

Doesn't sound cut and dried to me!

So you want the devastating environmental damage and the horrendous cruelty to go on just so you can have a cheap chicken burger? Nice.

 

[editor]

It was written and published in 2017, how the fuck would they know to write about research published a year in the fucking future?

I can't believe you're this stupid. Don't you understand how the web works?

 

[Funky_monks]

I can't believe you're this stupid. Don't you understand how the web works?

I understand how academic journals work.
Its a published pdf, published in 2017.
Journals, (academic or lay press) online or not do not go back and retrospectively alter articles.
They write new articles detailing new findings.
I can go online and pull up articles from years ago and then use software like Google scholar to see where it has been cited.

 

[editor]

I understand how academic journals work.
Its a published pdf, published in 2017.
Journals, (academic or lay press) online or not do not go back and retrospectively alter articles. I can go online and pull up articles from years ago and then use software like Google scholar to see where it has been cited.

So to be clear. There is no mention anywhere of this article being 'superseded'?
Surely the new report would make this clear.

 

[editor]

Still there is some good news for people who give a shit about the awful conditions that intelligent animals are subjected to:

Saving the bacon: will British pig farmers âsurvive a ban on cages?

An end to UK pig confinement is in sight, but producers fear they will be left carrying the cost of high-welfare options in the face of cheap imports

www.theguardian.com

And here's another reason why people have to eat less meat:

The use of antibiotics has revolutionised livestock farming, curbing the spread of diseases among animals kept in cramped conditions. But it comes at a potentially deadly cost to human health. Widespread antibiotic use in animals can cause the evolution of drug-resistant superbugs fatal to humans.

Now experts warn that the model of intensive agriculture used in the world’s richer countries, which relies on routine drug usage, is increasingly being adopted by countries with much weaker healthcare and sanitary systems.
The Bureau has identified a spike in the use of a class of antibiotics deemed critical to human health in US farming in recent years, but an even graver long-term threat comes from escalating use of antibiotics in the developing world.
It is estimated that the adoption of intensive farming practices in middle-income countries will account for up to a third of the increase in global use of antibiotics for livestock between 2010 and 2030. Antibiotic use on farm animals is expected to double in Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa over this period.

“We’ve exported this industrial food-animal production model to the world,” said Lance Price, a professor at the George Washington University’s Milken Institute School of Public Health and founding director of the Antibiotic Resistance Action Center.
Overall sales of antibiotics for use on livestock are falling in the US, having dropped by 14% between 2010 and 2019. Yet sales of aminoglycosides, a class of antibiotics that includes gentamicin – a medicine widely used to treat humans – have spiked, rising 45% during the same period. The use of these drugs grew particularly sharply in pig rearing, according to data published by the government’s Food and Drug Administration.

The world’s hunger for meat is accelerating the rise of superbugs

The adoption of intensive farming practices in middle-income countries is estimated to account for up to a third of the increase in global use of…

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

 

[Flavour]

Already does, tbh, in the form of humans

bloody hell don't see you around very often, hope all's well x

 

[Funky_monks]

So to be clear. There is no mention anywhere of this article being 'superseded'?
Surely the new report would make this clear.

That's not how journals work - they publish new work, it might not have been authored by the same people at Oxford.
You don't then contact authors of all works who your findings disagree with to have them alter it - an article is a snapshot in time.
Its not a live website, its a published pamphlet, hence it being in pdf form

 

[editor]

That's not how journals work - they publish new work, it might not have been authored by the same people at Oxford.
You don't then contact authors of all works who your findings disagree with to have them alter it - an article is a snapshot in time.
Its not a live website, its a published pamphlet, hence it being in pdf form

Or you could just admit that your notion that the report has been 'superseded' and thus able to be discounted completely is, frankly, bollocks.

 

[Funky_monks]

It works like this - all are published, all are in pdf, none will have been altered after date of publication. You don't appear to know how publishing works now.

 

[Funky_monks]

Or you could just admit that your notion that the report has been 'superseded' and thus able to be discounted completely is, frankly, bollocks.

Its new findings in the same subject, published a year later than the one you quoted. That's quite literally what superseding is.

 

[Funky_monks]

Here's the exact citation for the study you linked to:
Garnett, T., Godde, C., Muller, A., Röös, E., Smith, P., De Boer, I.J.M., zu Ermgassen, E., Herrero, M., Van Middelaar, C.E., Schader, C. and Van Zanten, H.H.E., 2017. Grazed and confused?: Ruminating on cattle, grazing systems, methane, nitrous oxide, the soil carbon sequestration question-and what it all means for greenhouse gas emissions. FCRN.

I think you are labouring somehow under the misapprehension that a publication is like a live website whereby the authors update it all the time, they don't. They publish new stuff.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I stated that the "vast majority of chicken meat comes from industrial farming." You are welcome to try and disprove this even though I have already posted plenty of evidence to support that claim.

I also stated that "vast quantities of meat are being produced in fast-growing number of factory farms in the UK," and also supported that claim with relevant links. I made no mention of Europe, neither did I singularly specify beef, so it really would help if you stopped trying to twist and distort what I have clearly stated.

And there's also plenty of evidence that industrial-scale beef farming is on the rise in the UK:

Revealed: industrial-scale beef farming comes to the UK

Investigation uncovers about a dozen intensive beef units, despite assurances that US-style practices would not happen here

www.theguardian.com

Drone footage shows size of Britain’s mega-farms that ‘speed up climate change’

MEPs vote to end subsidies for industrial-scale sites that don't respect basic animal-welfare principles

www.independent.co.uk

OK, please quote figures from the UK, as I can't see them in the pages you quoted.
And "something happening more than it used to" isn't a figure.

 

[editor]

Here's the exact citation for the study you linked to:
Garnett, T., Godde, C., Muller, A., Röös, E., Smith, P., De Boer, I.J.M., zu Ermgassen, E., Herrero, M., Van Middelaar, C.E., Schader, C. and Van Zanten, H.H.E., 2017. Grazed and confused?: Ruminating on cattle, grazing systems, methane, nitrous oxide, the soil carbon sequestration question-and what it all means for greenhouse gas emissions. FCRN.

I think you are labouring somehow under the misapprehension that a publication is like a live website whereby the authors update it all the time, they don't. They publish new stuff.

I think you're labouring somehow under the misapprehension that the entire findings of a study can be immediately and completely discounted as soon as a newer one on the same topic comes along.

 

[editor]

OK, please quote figures from the UK, as I can't see them in the pages you quoted.
And "something happening more than it used to" isn't a figure.

No, really. I've done enough. Now you can do your own research and get back to me.

You can start with how much chicken is produced from factory/industrial farms in the UK. But here's a clue to get you started:

However, animal welfare charities say 70% of UK farm animals, more than 1 billion animals every year, are now kept in intensive indoor units that Philip Lymbery, chief executive of Compassion in World Farming calls “the biggest cause of animal cruelty in Britain today”.

 

[Saul Goodman]

I think you're labouring somehow under the misapprehension that the entire findings of a study can be immediately and completely discounted as soon as a newer one on the same topic comes along.

Are you suggesting that the only research to be believed is the one you post, and any subsequent research that proves the original research to be wrong is bollocks?

 

[Funky_monks]

I think you're labouring somehow under the misapprehension that the entire findings of a study can be immediately and completely discounted as soon as a newer one on the same topic comes along.

Sometimes they can, sometimes they can't - however, when its new figures on the same topic........
Also, I have explained countless times that these studies deal with emissions only and not sequestration, which pasture does better than trees (as per the sterling study I posted earlier.....)

 

[Saul Goodman]

No, really. I've done enough. Now you can do your own research and get back to me.

You can start with how much chicken is produced from factory/industrial farms in the UK. But here's a clue to get you started:

The first link you posted takes me to a landing/begging page that says "

HELP BAN LIVE EXPORTS BATTLE PLAN TO SUCCEED​

Together we can turn our battle plan into a victory for millions of helpless farm animals around the world. DONATE"​

Which kinda dictates that anything from that source will most likely be lies.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was written and published in 2017, how the fuck would they know to write about research published a year in the fucking future?

Sometimes you see in books the author thank someone for showing them research in progress

 

[Funky_monks]

Sometimes you see in books the author thank someone for showing them research in progress

This is true, but I can't see any reference to the ongoing work in that 2017 report acknowledgements- quite possibly because, certainly within the research group I'm in, I have no clue of the minutae of what everyone is currently up to.

Weirdly enough, if you disregard the soundbites and read the whole of that 2017 report, there's actually quite a lot of stuff in there that agrees with my opinion posts, but I suspect it has not been read cover to cover.

 

[editor]

The first link you posted takes me to a landing/begging page that says "

HELP BAN LIVE EXPORTS BATTLE PLAN TO SUCCEED​

Together we can turn our battle plan into a victory for millions of helpless farm animals around the world. DONATE"​

Which kinda dictates that anything from that source will most likely be lies.

Sigh. Here, try these links that I've already posted (and you've obviously ignored)

Over 70% of farm animals in the UK are kept in factory farms, where they spend their lives in overcrowded barns or cages.

Factory Farming Is Sweeping the U.K.

Two British reporters discuss their recent investigation tracking the rise of factory farming in the United Kingdom and its resemblance to American practices.

civileats.com

Ending factory farming

Factory Farming is everywhere. Globally, around 92 billion farm animals are factory farmed every year. These intensive systems put production above all else, creating vast quantities of seemingly cheap meat, milk and eggs.

www.ciwf.org.uk

Industrial-sized pig and chicken farming continuing to rise in UK

Number of large-scale, intensive farms with upwards of 40,000 birds or 2,000 pigs is increasing, driven by demand for cheap meat

www.theguardian.com

Intensive farming in the UK, by numbers

The number of intensive farms in the UK has risen by a quarter with many so big they fit the definition of a US mega-farm.

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

Half of UK chickens produced by US agriculture giants

The data has fuelled concerns about growing American influence over the British food sector

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

Factory Farming Is Sweeping the U.K.

Two British reporters discuss their recent investigation tracking the rise of factory farming in the United Kingdom and its resemblance to American practices.

civileats.com

The rise of the "megafarm": How British meat is made

A major Bureau investigation reveals the changing face of farming in the UK.

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

Now off you go and do your own research and you go an prove that the majority of chicken doesn't come from factory farms in the UK.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Sigh. Here, try these links that I've already posted (and you've obviously ignored)



View attachment 280627

Factory Farming Is Sweeping the U.K.

Two British reporters discuss their recent investigation tracking the rise of factory farming in the United Kingdom and its resemblance to American practices.

civileats.com

Ending factory farming

Factory Farming is everywhere. Globally, around 92 billion farm animals are factory farmed every year. These intensive systems put production above all else, creating vast quantities of seemingly cheap meat, milk and eggs.

www.ciwf.org.uk

Industrial-sized pig and chicken farming continuing to rise in UK

Number of large-scale, intensive farms with upwards of 40,000 birds or 2,000 pigs is increasing, driven by demand for cheap meat

www.theguardian.com

Intensive farming in the UK, by numbers

The number of intensive farms in the UK has risen by a quarter with many so big they fit the definition of a US mega-farm.

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

Half of UK chickens produced by US agriculture giants

The data has fuelled concerns about growing American influence over the British food sector

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

Factory Farming Is Sweeping the U.K.

Two British reporters discuss their recent investigation tracking the rise of factory farming in the United Kingdom and its resemblance to American practices.

civileats.com

The rise of the "megafarm": How British meat is made

A major Bureau investigation reveals the changing face of farming in the UK.

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

Now off you go and do your own research and you go an prove that the majority of chicken doesn't come from factory farms in the UK.

Not a single piece of credible evidence in that list. If you're trying to convince me, opinion pieces from the Guardian and arm wavings from veganists isn't going to cut it.

 

[Funky_monks]

To add, after the megapost of presumably the same sources - number of animals does not an intensive farm make.
You could have 10 cows and keep them intensively - buy them at weaning, finish indoors bedded on straw, fed some kind of silage/concentrate ration. Conversely, you could finish 1000 head outside, on an extensive system if you had the room.

 

[Saul Goodman]

To add, after the megapost of presumably the same sources - number of animals does not an intensive farm make.
You could have 10 cows and keep them intensively - buy them at weaning, finish indoors bedded on straw, fed some kind of silage/concentrate ration. Conversely, you could finish 1000 head outside, on an extensive system if you had the room.

And if we're talking numbers alone, 50 billion bees are killed each year in California, just in the pollination of almond trees. Imagine how many people you could feed with 50 billion head of cattle!

 

[editor]

Not a single piece of credible evidence in that list. If you're trying to convince me, opinion pieces from the Guardian and arm wavings from veganists isn't going to cut it.

So if you're going to childishly dismiss all the articles, the videos, all the research and all the journalists as 'veganists' (what?) like some kind of reality denying Trump fan, then it's time for you produce some credible research that categorically proves that the majority of chicken production in the UK doesn't come from factory farms.

So what have you got?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sigh. Here, try these links that I've already posted (and you've obviously ignored)

Now off you go and do your own research and you go an prove that the majority of chicken doesn't come from factory farms in the UK.

You've switched here from 'majority of meat' to 'majority of chicken'. Be honest to acknowledge the change, no?

Also, let's concentration on quality rather than quantity. Something that may be said of our meat consumption, but also applies to your internet searches.