Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[Funky_monks]

On the one hand, we have a claim that the vast majority of chicken is factory farmed, on the other, when it is claimed that the vast majority of beef and sheep aren't, the existence of the incredibly few feedlot beef finishing units in the UK is deemed sufficient evidence that all beef is finished that way.

This is truly fascinating stuff.

I'd give you the actual answer, but in all honesty the armchair experts will once again be better able to describe the complex picture of UK agriculture than an agricultural sciences lecturer with over 20 years experience in the sector.

Also, do you have a load of stuff ready so that you can keep spamming the thread with exactly the same sources ad infinitum?
Do you honestly believe that the Guardian newspaper is an authority on anything and if you are able to critique its political reporting, why does this not extend to its agricultural reporting?

If a really complicated problem appears to have a "just do this one thing and that will sort the whole thing out" solution, do you think that it's really that simple?

Fucking delusional, but.... as you were.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The appearance of feedlot beef farms in the UK is fucking horrible, mind you. A very recent and very unwelcome development. It's right to highlight it and to try to put pressure to stop it.

In a less polarised discussion, I think all of us could probably agree on that. There is a lot of common ground here wrt how farming needs to be changed. Or there could be.

 

[Funky_monks]

The appearance of feedlot beef farms in the UK is fucking horrible, mind you. A very recent and very unwelcome development. It's right to highlight it and to try to put pressure to stop it.

In a less polarised discussion, I think all of us could probably agree on that. There is a lot of common ground here wrt how farming needs to be changed. Or there could be.

Yeah, I've mentioned that approach in my posts, which are, of course simply designed to obfuscate the incredibly clear and simple solution that all livestock bad and we could, of course have an abundance of food without them, because we can, of course keep harvesting crops indefinitely from all that land that's been wasted on pointless things like growing sheep.


Get the plough out, Dai - we're planting wheat this year....

 

[editor]

On the one hand, we have a claim that the vast majority of chicken is factory farmed, on the other, when it is claimed that the vast majority of beef and sheep aren't, the existence of the incredibly few feedlot beef finishing units in the UK is deemed sufficient evidence that all beef is finished that way.

The vast majority of chicken meat is factory farmed in the UK, and large quantities of beef is also created thorough industrial farming, and it's as growing trend. Not sure why you're trying to fudge around these simple facts.

 

[Funky_monks]

The vast majority of chicken meat is factory farmed in the UK, and large quantities of beef is also created thorough industrial farming. Not sure why you're trying to fudge around this simple facts.

Oh "large quantities", eh?

How large? A cow is pretty fucking large.

Or do you mean a significant percentage? If you do, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Aladdin]

Solution...
Buy local meat / poultry and veg.
Increase price of beef.

Lower the national herd numbers and encourage / incentivise the production of organic and grass fed beef and dairy plus free range chicken farms.

It will push the price of meats up. And people will be more careful about what they buy. Many will limit meat consumption because it will not be cheap anymore.

Good for the planet.
Good for the health of the nation.
Good for the animals because they will have a better life...

 

[editor]

Oh "large quantities", eh?

How large? A cow is pretty fucking large.

Or do you mean a significant percentage? If you do, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

And there you go again. Read what I fucking wrote instead of building strawmen at every turn. Are you still disputing my claim about chicken production, by the way, or have you realised your error and are now blustering your way out of that corner by indulging in full-on whataboutery about the increasing presence of intensive beef farms in the UK?

And a reminder why it's not just bad news for the animals:

Industrial farming also comes with a host of other serious problems. Converting land for agriculture can disrupt water supplies and lead to soil erosion, while fertilisers escape the fields to pollute rivers and oceans. Animals in factory farms are kept in brutal conditions and bred to maximise meat production at the expense of their own welfare. And eating more meat and dairy is increasingly being linked to a host of health impacts such as obesity, diabetes and various cancers, jeopardising our own health.

Meat and dairy: environmental impacts explained - Greenpeace UK

The meat and dairy industry is causing huge environmental damage. Industrial livestock farming drives climate change and pushes out wildlife.

www.greenpeace.org.uk

 

[editor]

And here's what's really happening, with the meat industry downplaying and distorting their true environmental impact. Sounds a bit like here!

The global meat industry is “borrowing tactics from tobacco companies” to downplay its role in driving the climate crisis, a major investigation has claimed.

Top meat companies are copying tricks also used by fossil fuel firms to ultimately “confuse and delay regulation” of their planet-harming activities, according to the environmental investigations outlet Desmog.


Such tactics include routinely downplaying their own greenhouse gas emissions, attacking established science on how livestock farming is driving the climate crisis and casting doubt over the benefits of plant-based alternatives to meat, the investigation said.

The Brazilian meat giant JBS – one of 10 companies and industry groups included in the investigation – controls UK companies that supply to many major British supermarkets and fast food outlets. JBS’s two UK subsidiaries alone account for 30 per cent of the UK market for chicken and pork, according to Greenpeace.

The investigation examines the “climate washing” tactics used by 10 of the world’s largest meat companies and their representative industry groups.

The production of meat and dairy accounts for around 14.5 per cent of all greenhouse gas emissions – and the world’s leading scientists say diets must change if the world is to meet its target of limiting global temperature rise to 1.5C above pre-industrial levels.

Livestock farming is particularly polluting because cattle belch out methane, a potent greenhouse gas. In addition, large areas of forest are razed to make space for grazing cattle and animal feed. The world’s largest tropical forest, the Amazon, is particularly threatened by large-scale cattle ranching and animal feed production.

However, the idea that grass-fed beef can be a climate solution has been challenged by scientists. A report by researchers at the University of Oxford found that grass-fed cows release more greenhouse gas emissions through belching and manure than they are able to offset through boosting soil carbon levels. This means that grass-fed beef is still a net contributor to the climate crisis.

Global meat industry ‘using tobacco company tactics’ to downplay role in driving climate crisis, investigation claims

Exclusive: Meat companies are routinely underreporting emissions, undermining climate science and casting doubt on plant-based alternatives, an investigation claims

www.independent.co.uk

 

[andysays]

Solution...
Buy local meat / poultry and veg.
Increase price of beef.

Lower the national herd numbers and encourage / incentivise the production of organic and grass fed beef and dairy plus free range chicken farms.

It will push the price of meats up. And people will be more careful about what they buy. Many will limit meat consumption because it will not be cheap anymore.

Good for the planet.
Good for the health of the nation.
Good for the animals because they will have a better life...

I fear that's far to sensible a suggestion for the zealots on both sides of the discussion on this thread.

 

[Funky_monks]

And there you go again. Read what I fucking wrote instead of building strawmen at every turn. Are you still disputing my claim about chicken production, by the way, or have you realised your error and are now blustering your way out of that corner by indulging in full-on whataboutery about the increasing presence of intensive beef farms in the UK?

And a reminder why it's not just bad news for the animals:

Meat and dairy: environmental impacts explained - Greenpeace UK

The meat and dairy industry is causing huge environmental damage. Industrial livestock farming drives climate change and pushes out wildlife.

www.greenpeace.org.uk

I have read what you wrote - you haven't a clue how much beef is finished in feedlots or if they are expanding etc.
You also seem to be blissfully unaware of what that process involves, ie that "finishing" is just that, and they will probably have been grazed for most of their lives.

 

[editor]

And here's a report from Oxford University, which will no doubt be ignored/downplayed/sidelined.

Ruminating on cattle, grazing systems, methane, nitrous oxide, the soil carbon sequestration question – and what it all means for greenhouse gas emissions

https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/reports/fcrn_gnc_report.pdf

 

[Aladdin]

I fear that's far to sensible a suggestion for the zealots on both sides of the discussion on this thread.

Ok....
I shall depart into the east....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Funky_monks]

And here's what's really happening, with the meat industry downplaying and distorting their true environmental impact. Sounds a bit like here!

Global meat industry ‘using tobacco company tactics’ to downplay role in driving climate crisis, investigation claims

Exclusive: Meat companies are routinely underreporting emissions, undermining climate science and casting doubt on plant-based alternatives, an investigation claims

www.independent.co.uk

Yeah, I read that - it's fucking bollocks from start to finish.
Firstly, the assumption that most meat production is in the hands of a few, large companies is utter arse.

 

[editor]

I fear that's far to sensible a suggestion for the zealots on both sides of the discussion on this thread.

Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!

 

[Funky_monks]

And here's a report from Oxford University, which will no doubt be ignored/downplayed/sidelined.

https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/downloads/reports/fcrn_gnc_report.pdf

Fuuuuck me, it's the 2017 report that was superceded by the 2018 report also from Oxford that I posted ages ago.
Can you stop spamming the thread with exactly the same sources?

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!

It'd make precisely zero difference to the price of lamb or beef.

 

[editor]

Yeah, I read that - it's fucking bollocks from start to finish.
Firstly, the assumption that most meat production is in the hands of a few, large companies is utter arse.

Wow. Full on denial of all the research within three minutes. Incredible.

 

[Funky_monks]

I fear that's far to sensible a suggestion for the zealots on both sides of the discussion on this thread.

Its by and large very similar to what I've suggested more than once over several pages

 

[editor]

It'd make precisely zero difference to the price of lamb or beef.

Oh so organic/small farm beef is exactly the same price as the industrially produced supermarket stuff? Gotcha.

 

[editor]

Its by and large very similar to what I've suggested more than once over several pages

It's really not, you know.

 

[Funky_monks]

Wow. Full on denial of all the research within three minutes. Incredible.

Its a guardian article - I read it ages ago. It is not "research" it's a fucking opinion piece

 

[editor]

Fuuuuck me, it's the 2017 report that was superceded by the 2018 report also from Oxford that I posted ages ago.
Can you stop spamming the thread with exactly the same sources?

Where does it say that this report has been 'superseded'? Source please.

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh so organic/small farm beef is exactly the same price as the industrially produced supermarket stuff? Gotcha.

Small farm, yes - organic pretty similar, except they need a vet to tell them when they can worm their sheep/cattle or use antibiotics.

 

[editor]

Its a guardian article - I read it ages ago. It is not "research" it's a fucking opinion piece

Independent actually. That shows how much you actually read it. LOL.

And it's full of links to other articles/research which you probably read in a matter of seconds, yes? Here's just a selection:

Investigation: How the Meat Industry is Climate-Washing its Polluting Business Model

Growing global meat consumption threatens to derail the Paris Agreement, but that hasn’t stopped the meat industry insisting it is part of the solution to climate change.

www.desmog.com

How JBS is still slaughtering the Amazon - Greenpeace UK

You can read the executive summary of this report below, or download the pdf to see the full version with footnotes. High stakes: how industrial meat is taking us to the tipping point The global system of industrial agriculture fuels the climate emergency and destroys biodiversity. It erodes...

eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com

https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fao.org%2F3%2Fi3437e%2Fi3437e.pdf&data=04%7C01%7CRichard.Booth%40independent.co.uk%7C105c4f6f09884659c9d108d94a926593%7C0f3a4c644dc54a768d4152d85ca158a5%7C0%7C0%7C637622815781682867%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=yikGVvJeWeCzxmRWXSBV7RpWmgO%2BflBuyZIdlwFBD%2Fc%3D&reserved=0

Global Warming of 1.5 ºC —

eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com

Tax salt and sugar and cut meat to tackle health crisis, report says

Call comes from first major review of England’s food system in more than 70 years

eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com

How JBS is still slaughtering the Amazon - Greenpeace UK

You can read the executive summary of this report below, or download the pdf to see the full version with footnotes. High stakes: how industrial meat is taking us to the tipping point The global system of industrial agriculture fuels the climate emergency and destroys biodiversity. It erodes...

eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com

Amazonia as a carbon source linked to deforestation and climate change - Nature

Aircraft observations of atmospheric carbon dioxide and monoxide concentrations in Brazil show higher carbon emissions in eastern Amazonia than in the western part, which are linked to increased ecosystem stress and fire occurrence.

eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com

 

[Funky_monks]

Where does it say that this report has been 'superseded'? Source please.

Why would a 2017 report say its superceded by a 2018 one?
They aren't clairvoyants

 

[Funky_monks]

Independent actually. That shows how much you actually read it. LOL.

Whichever, I get both on my news feed and have read it. Pedantry won't make it any less bollocks.

 

[andysays]

Oh, I'm all for massively increasing the welfare standards of animals and removing the barbaric industrial farms and industrial processes. And if that results in sky high meat prices, then people will be encouraged to seek out equally tasty, non-meat alternatives. Sounds like a total win to me!

It sounds like a big improvement to me, but it would still involve many people eating meat, all be it in lower quantities than currently.

There are some on this thread who won't see that as a total win, who apparently won't be happy until all meat-eating is a thing of the past.

Sometimes you appear to be veering towards that position, but I'm happy to acknowledge that at least some of the time your position is far more reasonable.

 

[Funky_monks]

It sounds like a big improvement to me, but it would still involve many people eating meat, all be it in lower quantities than currently.

There are some on this thread who won't see that as a total win, who apparently won't be happy until all meat-eating is a thing of the past.

Sometimes you appear to be veering towards that position, but I'm happy to acknowledge that at least some of the time your position is far more reasonable.

Its an opinion of someone with zero knowledge of applied agriculture, with absolutely no experience in either that sector or of research within the sector.
If you look back, I've put some quite detailed stuff trying to explain the complexities of food production.

But, what would I know?

 

[editor]

It sounds like a big improvement to me, but it would still involve many people eating meat, all be it in lower quantities than currently.

There are some on this thread who won't see that as a total win, who apparently won't be happy until all meat-eating is a thing of the past.

Sometimes you appear to be veering towards that position, but I'm happy to acknowledge that at least some of the time your position is far more reasonable.

I've consistently argued from the very start that people need to massively reduce their meat consumption. And it seems for some posters here, that is an unpalatable message, despite the urgency of the environmental harm being caused by the meat industry.

Personally, I'd like to see the end to all factory/industrial farming too and let the cost of meat rise to its true level, rather than be artificially forced down by subjecting animals to despicable cruelty.

 

[editor]

Its an opinion of someone with zero knowledge of applied agriculture, with absolutely no experience in either that sector or of research within the sector.
If you look back, I've put some quite detailed stuff trying to explain the complexities of food production.

But, what would I know?

You certainly know how to dismiss/ignore/belittle any research or articles that don't chime with your pro-meat worldview. Sometimes you achieve this in under 180 seconds.